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04-08-2010, 11:47 PM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
can't blame them. it's the only obvious department the k-x really excels at. at the end of the day, most people would shoot at base ISO as much as they possibly can. I wouldn't shoot past 400 on a good regular day or with enough good lighting unless I really have to, which is not that often.
You seem to be missing the incredible dynamic range it delivers at low ISO. Even at 400 the difference in SNR in the shadows is pretty significant, even if it's about the same in other areas. When you shoot a lot of high-contrast compositions, that really matters.

Personally, I use it at ISO 100 90% of the time, and ISO 1250-3200 8% of the time, and other ISOs the rest of the time. And yes, I like it better at every ISO than I liked the K20D, wonderful as it was.

04-09-2010, 12:04 AM   #467
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K20d, ISO 2500, DA70

04-09-2010, 12:08 AM   #468
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From the Chris Daggett campaign last fall

K20d, ISO 2000, DA* 16-50 F/2.8

04-09-2010, 12:11 AM   #469
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From the Chris Daggett campaign last fall

K20d, ISO 2500, DA70

This is from election night, Daggett with his close advisers conferring before he makes his concession speech before his loyal supporters and the media...



04-09-2010, 12:55 AM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
You seem to be missing the incredible dynamic range it delivers at low ISO. Even at 400 the difference in SNR in the shadows is pretty significant, even if it's about the same in other areas. When you shoot a lot of high-contrast compositions, that really matters.

Personally, I use it at ISO 100 90% of the time, and ISO 1250-3200 8% of the time, and other ISOs the rest of the time. And yes, I like it better at every ISO than I liked the K20D, wonderful as it was.
I had taken that into consideration and thought of that as well. but the point of what I was saying is that how often people shoot at High ISO, which you evidently answered. now the other question, is your ISO 3200 images as excellent as your ISO 200 shots?

speaking of incredible DR at low ISO, I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other dslrs that have such better capability that I could use if I'm shooting at such low ISO.
04-09-2010, 02:00 AM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
You are spot on. In the last 12 months, there was one day when I needed to go to ISO 3200--at the New England Aquarium. Otherwise, I'm @ ISO 400 on down. I too think too much is made of the High ISO thing.
I guess it depends on how much one shoots (or have to shoot) badly lit indoors without flash (either because it's prohibited or because it wouldn't help). If you shoot mostly outdoors and in plenty of light then of course high ISO is not important to you - but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other people who do most of their shooting in conditions where (good) high ISO is needed and being used most of the time.

Ps: for some reason I can't see the second pic in your post.
04-09-2010, 04:35 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
K20d, ISO 2500, DA70

This is from election night, Daggett with his close advisers conferring before he makes his concession speech before his loyal supporters and the media...
Great capture. It has that authentic photojournalistic feel. Somehow you got the feeling across that this was an important moment (whether it was or not, I don't know ;-)). The b&w adds a lot to the mood of the scene.

Last edited by audiobomber; 04-09-2010 at 07:44 AM.
04-09-2010, 07:10 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I had taken that into consideration and thought of that as well. but the point of what I was saying is that how often people shoot at High ISO, which you evidently answered. now the other question, is your ISO 3200 images as excellent as your ISO 200 shots?

speaking of incredible DR at low ISO, I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other dslrs that have such better capability that I could use if I'm shooting at such low ISO.
Of course the 3200 shots don't look as good as the 200 shots. The point is though, that for 3200 they look damn good. btw, when I say I shoot about 8% of the time at moderate-to-high ISO, that 8% consists of a few hours once or twice a week when I shoot at local shows, and that's where most of my money comes from, so it may be less than the low ISO shooting, but it's still very important.

Yes, there are cameras with better DR at low ISO, but so far they're either oddballs with other compromises (the fuji S3-S5) or a couple thousand bucks (the current crop of full-frames). And then its peers with the same sensor, the D5000 and D90, though they lack the special tone-response trick at ISO 100 the K-x has. So I'm willing to call it an outstanding characteristic of the K-x.

04-09-2010, 07:17 AM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
You are spot on. In the last 12 months, there was one day when I needed to go to ISO 3200--at the New England Aquarium. Otherwise, I'm @ ISO 400 on down. I too think too much is made of the High ISO thing.
It depends. The majority of my street shots with the K20D are at ISO 1600. ISO 1600 is really nothing for the K20D.
04-09-2010, 08:59 AM   #475
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QuoteQuote:
simico: I guess it depends on how much one shoots (or have to shoot) badly lit indoors without flash (either because it's prohibited or because it wouldn't help). If you shoot mostly outdoors and in plenty of light then of course high ISO is not important to you - but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other people who do most of their shooting in conditions where (good) high ISO is needed and being used most of the time.

Ps: for some reason I can't see the second pic in your post.
I do like to shoot indoors, but flash keeps my ISO down in those situations. I am not saying there are people for whom High ISO performance is not essential--not at all. If high ISO performance were paramount to me, I think I would be in another system though, either C or N where not only is FF a reality, but where lens support towards that end is a reality as well. In those systems you will see serious upgrade to High ISO performance, as well as serious $$ investment. If you are making a living at it, & high ISO performance is essential, then the $$ are well spent. This is not for me. I love my Pentax and find the ISO performance more than I ever need.

Thank you for pointing out my second pic--I'll re-check the post for errors, though I'm not sure there is one because no one else, yet anyway, has kindly pointed this out for me.
04-09-2010, 09:05 AM   #476
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QuoteQuote:
jgredline: It depends. The majority of my street shots with the K20D are at ISO 1600. ISO 1600 is really nothing for the K20D.
For me it is ISO 400 for a normal ceiling, and for you it is ISO 1600 for a normal ceiling, since you shoot people a lot, who move. You also like DOF and shoot a lot in the F8 range. This is completely understandable and I agree that 1600 is no problem for all the Pentax DSLRs. with the exception of the K10d.

The more visible problems come in just above this range, particularly at 3200, as Pentaxor points out. It is here where compromises in NR are made, to varying degrees on varying Pentax bodies. That is my only point.

Last edited by Jewelltrail; 04-09-2010 at 12:18 PM.
04-09-2010, 10:03 AM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Of course the 3200 shots don't look as good as the 200 shots. The point is though, that for 3200 they look damn good. btw, when I say I shoot about 8% of the time at moderate-to-high ISO, that 8% consists of a few hours once or twice a week when I shoot at local shows, and that's where most of my money comes from, so it may be less than the low ISO shooting, but it's still very important.

Yes, there are cameras with better DR at low ISO, but so far they're either oddballs with other compromises (the fuji S3-S5) or a couple thousand bucks (the current crop of full-frames). And then its peers with the same sensor, the D5000 and D90, though they lack the special tone-response trick at ISO 100 the K-x has. So I'm willing to call it an outstanding characteristic of the K-x.
gotcha. I understand your need for such capability.as for my needs and situation, a good flash and other lighting equipment are always indispensable for situation where optimal results are of importance.

yes, there will always be compromises between systems. one camera will be superior on one thing, and the other on another part. for me, the tonality of the other systems don't matter or just fine by me, since I'm after the DR and tone is also nice. but just a wishful thinking, that I would love Pentax dslrs to have such DR technology by Fuji.

I believe everybody would be happy to have an ISO 3200 with an ISO 50 IQ.
04-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
gotcha. I understand your need for such capability.as for my needs and situation, a good flash and other lighting equipment are always indispensable for situation where optimal results are of importance.

yes, there will always be compromises between systems. one camera will be superior on one thing, and the other on another part. for me, the tonality of the other systems don't matter or just fine by me, since I'm after the DR and tone is also nice. but just a wishful thinking, that I would love Pentax dslrs to have such DR technology by Fuji.

I believe everybody would be happy to have an ISO 3200 with an ISO 50 IQ.
I tend to use lighting equipment as well. Two nights ago the show I shot had lighting that, while sufficient for shutter speeds of 1/60th or so at ISO 1250 and f2.8, was rather unflattering to the performers. I positioned some remote flashes around the stage. I used ISO 800 with the flashes to be able to stop down for better dof and in processing the files I've been very pleased with the way ISO 800 files have so much latitude for processing. So even with lights, high ISO is often still relevant. When I used the 135mm for a few shots, I bumped it up to 1600 (still with the lights) so that I could close down the aperture even more to maintain decent dof.

I look forward to the days (if ever) when we can shoot ISO 3200 with the same quality as today's ISO 200. Then the only important variables will be shutter speed, aperture, and lighting, lifting a lot of the practical restrictions on us photographer's creative restrictions.

A couple from that night:



04-09-2010, 12:44 PM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
If high ISO performance were paramount to me, I think I would be in another system though, either C or N where not only is FF a reality, but where lens support towards that end is a reality as well. In those systems you will see serious upgrade to High ISO performance, as well as serious $$ investment. If you are making a living at it, & high ISO performance is essential, then the $$ are well spent. This is not for me. I love my Pentax and find the ISO performance more than I ever need.
I agree with where are going with this, but would like to make a few distinctions here. First, when we speak of how important high ISO is to us, there is both the question of how *often* we use it, and also how *good* the results need to be. And there is the matter of how much we are willing to pay for incremental improvement after that basic minimum threshold.

In my case, I shoot high ISO a *lot*. Maybe 50% or more of my shooting is 1600 or above, because I do so much concert and indoor candid photography. I'd also say that performance is quite important to me in that it needs to exceed a certain level that pretty much rules out the small sensor cameras. Which is too bad, because, sure, I'd love a pocketable superzoom that would work for me. I'm willing to pay rather more for a DSLR to get above the threshold I want to reach. But beyond that, the differences between APS-C cameras is largely irrelevant to me, and FF just isn't worth the cost in dollars or size/weight.

So I'm in a position of saying high ISO performance is extremely important to me, and yet it also doesn't really serve as much of a differentiator within the world of DSLR's.

If I might make yet another car analogy, decent high ISO performance is like brakes. I absolutely, positively need this, and would no more buy a camera with unacceptable high ISO performance than I would a car without brakes. But beyond that, brakes are brakes to me, and I really couldn't care less about differences in braking between cars - they're all good enough for me.
04-09-2010, 06:02 PM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote

I look forward to the days (if ever) when we can shoot ISO 3200 with the same quality as today's ISO 200. Then the only important variables will be shutter speed, aperture, and lighting, lifting a lot of the practical restrictions on us photographer's creative restrictions.

A couple from that night:

true, that is one of the photographer's wet dreams and I would be really be impressed at. maybe at 6400 is asking for too much already. but at today's fast shifting technology, how would you know when the limit has been reached or can anyone breach that limit further? I dunno, probably they had already gotten to that stage but never wanted to sell it in the market yet.
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