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06-29-2009, 10:22 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
I use Rear-Curtain Flash too.
Works for me, just to share with you how I did it.

I have few complaints about 1/90s, because if I try to shoot, e.g. 1/180s shutter, I simply won't get the "blurred" effect I want for rear-curtain, unless its very fast moving. Not with kids playing.

I set either Tv shutter priority (max out at 1/90s on Rear Curtain, of course) or Program mode, minimum ISO. The camera will not overexpose, because it will adjust the aperture accordingly. In broad daylight I might end up with f/16 or f/22. No big deal.
I set -1 E/V Flash compensation, which is the usual technique for fill flash.

I live in the Tropics - a few rare times, at midday, 1/90s f/22 ISO200 still overexposes. I gave up on those occasions, but I won't trash Pentax just because of that. If its very important to me I'll buy an ND filter
Again, I don't need rear sync above 1/90, I need to not have to dig into a menu and change it several times during an event. Rear curtain should work at 1/180 on my Pentax at least as well as it works at 1/250 on my buddy's D300... well, his D80 and D200 too for that matter.

In this case, once I figured out what the problem was, I just scrapped the rear curtain idea, set it to front curtain and got back to work, which was fine. If it were my only beef with the Pentax flash system I would probably just shrug my shoulders and say, "eh, I can live with it." I'm just kind of getting tired of saying that when it comes to flash photography with my Pentax gear. I want to believe that Pentax takes flash support seriously and that they will eventually catch up with the competition a bit in this area. The more I grow as a photographer, the more I'm depending on axillary lights to create the shots I want.

I'll say this, I would miss the green button if I had to change systems to get solid flash support. I love that thing!

06-29-2009, 10:37 PM   #17
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QuoteQuote:
Here's an example of the type of crappy shot you can make above the sync speed with a Canon but not with a Pentax.

Not to nit-pick... well, ok, I am nit-picking. The shot you link to here *isn't* an action shot, and the Pentax system DOES do HSS. I get your rear-curtain frustration, but this shot doesn't illustrate it - it could be done with a Pentax just as well as the Canon.

-jsw
06-29-2009, 11:12 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
Again, I don't need rear sync above 1/90, I need to not have to dig into a menu and change it several times during an event. Rear curtain should work at 1/180 on my Pentax at least as well as it works at 1/250 on my buddy's D300... well, his D80 and D200 too for that matter.
Again - not to defend Pentax in relation to other systems but the flash system is definitely one of the strong points in the Nikon lineup. When I made the decision to go with two systems (i'm now Pentax and Canon) it was the flash system on the Nikon that I saw as the most attractive that almost lead me to Nikon. Overall there's a lot of other flaws in the Nikon system that I saw. For Canon I am definitely not ecstatic with their flash system. Even though the 580exII was specifically designed to go with my 1DmkIII, with the ability to control the flash from the Camera body, it is still a cumbersome ordeal to get the camera and flash working together they way I want them to work. On top of that their IR wireless system has serious problems with line-of-sight that make it very much comparable to the optical system on the Pentax (neither are that good IMHO).

Here's an example of things gone wrong with both systems at the same time. I shot a wedding last weekend with both cameras. Pentax had 50-135 while Canon had 24-70. There was some legal complications with where the wedding was to be held (long story) so it happened "quickly" (ceremony lasted about 2 min). During that 2 minutes my Pentax flash must have wiggled loose so the main contact was connecting but the other contacts were not. The result was that I was getting 100% flash power with every picture causing major blowouts. I quickly tried to manually set the flash to 1/4 or 1/16 but the "smart" system would not let me overide the controls so I had to turn the flash off.

In the mean time I could not get the Canon flash to "zoom" for me. Apparently I had flipped the diffuser down on it recently and it had not reset itself even though the diffuser was all the way back in its sleeve. I tried to manually zoom the lens to 50mm because at 14mm it was not lighting my pictures properly. This was not a fatal flaw and i continued to shoot like that for the next few minutes until I thought to pull out the diffuser and then put it back in (which re-set it properly).

In both cases the flash systems were programmed to NOT allow me to set manual controls that I needed set. The day was no ruined and I salvaged enough good pictures to call the whole shoot a success but I was sure pissed at both flash systems during the heat of the moment. I don't think Nikon would have been any better there but the software installed with the flashes for all systems is clearly more concerned about preventing photographers from doing stupid things than allowing knowledgeable shooters the ability to control their gear. Therein lies the answer to why Pentax won't let you shoot above 1/180 when the flash is mounted. Its almost more of a flaw that the other cameras do allow it than a flaw that pentax does not
06-30-2009, 12:48 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
Here's an example of the type of crappy shot you can make above the sync speed with a Canon but not with a Pentax.
If I'm not mistaken, the technique in the shot above involves deliberately underexposing the surrounding ambient light using high shutter speed, at the same time brightening up the subject to "normal" using the flash.

Sure, it can be done with Pentax, with a few limitations.

a. You need a powerful flash like AF540 because of the loss of maximum power during High-Speed synch. At 1/1000 secs shutter speed, you are left with only about 1/4 of the Guide Number. With an AF540, that's still plenty for portraits.

b. Set the Flash to High-Speed Synch
c. Set the camera exposure to Manual mode "M" on the Pentax.
d. Set the aperture just wide enough to light up the subject using the flash at its reduced Guide Number (need to do a bit of maths to get it right).
e. Set the shutter speed high enough to deliberately underexpose the ambient background - typically 3 stops or more. The Viewfinder indicator will warn you by blinking the shutter speed when you are in Underexposure territory. I've ended up with 1/1000 secs, even 1/4000 secs - the maximum shutter speed to get the needed underexposure.

If its too bright outside e.g. midday, it may be impossible to achieve this. But late afternoon , or morning should be OK.

It works -try it.

I don't have any current photos to show here, but at one time I had a fad with "pretend" evening shots, with a dark-ish background, when the shot was actually taken in the afternoon - all done with a Pentax camera and flash


Last edited by kittykat46; 06-30-2009 at 01:09 AM.
06-30-2009, 01:54 AM   #20
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I just tried the same technique with my Sigma SD14, along with a Flash Waves radio popper and it appears to be an interesting technique.
At 1/500 you can hardly make out the flash along the top of the frame.

Without the trigger I could only go up to 1/200, which in my opinion is still fine for most work.

I would think that your Pentax would act the same, with a radio popper.
Since I no longer own a Pentax I can't try it and find out.
06-30-2009, 02:10 AM   #21
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You seem to know what your talking bout with flashes and I'm next to clueless about em so this suggestion might not be worth a damn but...

You're shooting in manual with rear-curtain right?
And you just want to be able to push to max sync speed?
Can you not just turn the camera body mode dial to X? Works for me.
Better yet i have USER set to Manual Exposure so you only have one click and your on X Sync.

But yeh i see you also want to push faster shutter speeds. Would be nice if what you are suggesting was possible without switching to HSS.
06-30-2009, 05:52 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
Not to nit-pick... well, ok, I am nit-picking. The shot you link to here *isn't* an action shot, and the Pentax system DOES do HSS. I get your rear-curtain frustration, but this shot doesn't illustrate it - it could be done with a Pentax just as well as the Canon.

-jsw
It was shot at 1/320 with flash. Teach me how to do that with my Pentax and I'll kiss ya!

06-30-2009, 06:07 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
It was shot at 1/320 with flash. Teach me how to do that with my Pentax and I'll kiss ya!
Unless im missing something, you do it exactly the way kittykat layed it out a few posts up. Unless the Sigma flash doesnt allow this? I was just doing it with a Metz58 on K20.
06-30-2009, 06:13 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
If I'm not mistaken, the technique in the shot above involves deliberately underexposing the surrounding ambient light using high shutter speed, at the same time brightening up the subject to "normal" using the flash.

Sure, it can be done with Pentax, with a few limitations.

a. You need a powerful flash like AF540 because of the loss of maximum power during High-Speed synch. At 1/1000 secs shutter speed, you are left with only about 1/4 of the Guide Number. With an AF540, that's still plenty for portraits.

b. Set the Flash to High-Speed Synch
c. Set the camera exposure to Manual mode "M" on the Pentax.
d. Set the aperture just wide enough to light up the subject using the flash at its reduced Guide Number (need to do a bit of maths to get it right).
e. Set the shutter speed high enough to deliberately underexpose the ambient background - typically 3 stops or more. The Viewfinder indicator will warn you by blinking the shutter speed when you are in Underexposure territory. I've ended up with 1/1000 secs, even 1/4000 secs - the maximum shutter speed to get the needed underexposure.

If its too bright outside e.g. midday, it may be impossible to achieve this. But late afternoon , or morning should be OK.

It works -try it.

I don't have any current photos to show here, but at one time I had a fad with "pretend" evening shots, with a dark-ish background, when the shot was actually taken in the afternoon - all done with a Pentax camera and flash
I use high speed sync mid day when I can get in close and the subject isn't moving (fishy example of my own work) but it's not the answer for action shots in the bright sun. The multiple flash pulses catch your subject at slightly different points with each pop effectively creating multiple exposures. Generally speaking, I think HSS is appropriate in the situations where the K-7 HDR or bracketed exposures blended in post might be used as well. Imagine the bride above jumping off the bridge instead of standing next to it. The technique used in that shot would still work, HSS would not.
06-30-2009, 06:26 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote
Not to nit-pick... well, ok, I am nit-picking. The shot you link to here *isn't* an action shot, and the Pentax system DOES do HSS. I get your rear-curtain frustration, but this shot doesn't illustrate it - it could be done with a Pentax just as well as the Canon.

-jsw
For the record, that shot was not posted to illustrate my latest frustration with 1/90 rear curtain sync speed. It was posted to refute the claim that catching the shutter curtains in your exposure results in pictures that look like (bleep).
06-30-2009, 06:29 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by bentax Quote
You seem to know what your talking bout with flashes and I'm next to clueless about em so this suggestion might not be worth a damn but...

You're shooting in manual with rear-curtain right?
And you just want to be able to push to max sync speed?
Can you not just turn the camera body mode dial to X? Works for me.
Better yet i have USER set to Manual Exposure so you only have one click and your on X Sync.

But yeh i see you also want to push faster shutter speeds. Would be nice if what you are suggesting was possible without switching to HSS.
No, the moment you turn on the flash in rear curtain sync mode your shutter speed drops to 1/90, the "X" sync speed for that feature.
06-30-2009, 06:46 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by kunik Quote
Again - not to defend Pentax in relation to other systems but the flash system is definitely one of the strong points in the Nikon lineup. When I made the decision to go with two systems (i'm now Pentax and Canon) it was the flash system on the Nikon that I saw as the most attractive that almost lead me to Nikon. Overall there's a lot of other flaws in the Nikon system that I saw. For Canon I am definitely not ecstatic with their flash system. Even though the 580exII was specifically designed to go with my 1DmkIII, with the ability to control the flash from the Camera body, it is still a cumbersome ordeal to get the camera and flash working together they way I want them to work. On top of that their IR wireless system has serious problems with line-of-sight that make it very much comparable to the optical system on the Pentax (neither are that good IMHO).

Here's an example of things gone wrong with both systems at the same time. I shot a wedding last weekend with both cameras. Pentax had 50-135 while Canon had 24-70. There was some legal complications with where the wedding was to be held (long story) so it happened "quickly" (ceremony lasted about 2 min). During that 2 minutes my Pentax flash must have wiggled loose so the main contact was connecting but the other contacts were not. The result was that I was getting 100% flash power with every picture causing major blowouts. I quickly tried to manually set the flash to 1/4 or 1/16 but the "smart" system would not let me overide the controls so I had to turn the flash off.

In the mean time I could not get the Canon flash to "zoom" for me. Apparently I had flipped the diffuser down on it recently and it had not reset itself even though the diffuser was all the way back in its sleeve. I tried to manually zoom the lens to 50mm because at 14mm it was not lighting my pictures properly. This was not a fatal flaw and i continued to shoot like that for the next few minutes until I thought to pull out the diffuser and then put it back in (which re-set it properly).

In both cases the flash systems were programmed to NOT allow me to set manual controls that I needed set. The day was no ruined and I salvaged enough good pictures to call the whole shoot a success but I was sure pissed at both flash systems during the heat of the moment. I don't think Nikon would have been any better there but the software installed with the flashes for all systems is clearly more concerned about preventing photographers from doing stupid things than allowing knowledgeable shooters the ability to control their gear. Therein lies the answer to why Pentax won't let you shoot above 1/180 when the flash is mounted. Its almost more of a flaw that the other cameras do allow it than a flaw that pentax does not
I don't want to be mean, but you are blaming the gear for your own mistakes and not knowing how to set the flash to manual beforehand.
06-30-2009, 07:54 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
For the record, that shot was not posted to illustrate my latest frustration with 1/90 rear curtain sync speed. It was posted to refute the claim that catching the shutter curtains in your exposure results in pictures that look like (bleep).
QuoteOriginally posted by GoldenWreckedAngle Quote
I use high speed sync mid day when I can get in close and the subject isn't moving (fishy example of my own work) but it's not the answer for action shots in the bright sun. The multiple flash pulses catch your subject at slightly different points with each pop effectively creating multiple exposures. Generally speaking, I think HSS is appropriate in the situations where the K-7 HDR or bracketed exposures blended in post might be used as well. Imagine the bride above jumping off the bridge instead of standing next to it. The technique used in that shot would still work, HSS would not.
I respectfully start to think I'm probablly blind:
- How is possible to obtain the neat lighing of the bride from head to toes, with a vertical plane shutter, and a exposure shorter than the sync speed (meaning that the rear curtain starts closing before the leading curtain is fully opened), without using HSS?
-I sucessfully took pictures of sppeding water drops, using HSS. Could not see the separate exposures. IMHO 1/1000 is 1/1000.

Finding very interesting the discussion here, I should thank the OP for starting the thread.
06-30-2009, 08:35 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by octavmandru Quote
I respectfully start to think I'm probablly blind:
- How is possible to obtain the neat lighing of the bride from head to toes, with a vertical plane shutter, and a exposure shorter than the sync speed (meaning that the rear curtain starts closing before the leading curtain is fully opened), without using HSS?
-I sucessfully took pictures of sppeding water drops, using HSS. Could not see the separate exposures. IMHO 1/1000 is 1/1000.

Finding very interesting the discussion here, I should thank the OP for starting the thread.
The Canon and Nikon bodies allow the flash to fire even when you set the shutter speed faster than their x-sync speed of 1/250. The shutter curtains enter the frame and block the flash exposure at the edge a bit but it doesn't create a hard black line, it creates the dark gradient you see at the edge of the image I posted. The subject in the center of the frame, or on the leading curtain side of the photo, is still correctly exposed by the flash. You can either crop in post to eliminate the dark edge or leave it as a feature in the final image. Unfortunately Pentax kills the hot shoe above 1/180 so this technique is not an option for Pentax shooters.

Here's a link to one of David's newsletters where he explains it in a little more detail. Look for the section titled, "Who Says You Need Native Sync speed?" about half way down the page.
06-30-2009, 08:59 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by alohadave Quote
I don't want to be mean, but you are blaming the gear for your own mistakes and not knowing how to set the flash to manual beforehand.
I made no mistakes. Sometime between taking pictures the flash had wiggled loose and the connections were apparently no longer lining up properly so the flash was apparently getting the wrong information from the camera and would not allow me to set it to manual. I did the only appropriate thing I could do in the circumstances and turned the flash off until I could deal with it. It was certainly not a case of me "not knowing how to set the flash to manual". A couple of minutes later I took the flash off and put it back on and then everything worked fine. During that time my only other option was to dial up the exposure on the camera to match the power output in the flash. This would have either resulted in a very interesting and dramatic picture with a severely darkened background or it would have been an absolute mess with shadows and some really dark people with other really bright people. I unfortunately did not have the luxury of time to just sit there and play with it so I just turned the flash off until it could be fixed.
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