K-7: Auto ISO in P mode is finally fixed

stevebrot · 07-07-2009, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Edvinas

You're completely missing the point.

lol101 already wrote: the essence of hyper program is that you seamlessly switch to Av (aperture priority) when you turn one wheel and to Tv (shutter speed priority) when you turn another wheel. It's that simple.

Tv (shutter priority mode) must behave the same, it should not be different wether you choose Tv with mode dial or shoose Tv in Hyper program by turning front wheel.

In K10D/K20D Tv and P->Tv behaves differently and that is a bug. In K-7 both Tv and P->Tv acts identically.

I guess I did completely miss the point!

Referring to the manual is for mental midgets...how stupid of me. How silly of Pentax to say that their feature works one way when it is obvious that it really does something different but is broken.

Steve

(In a seriously sarcastic mood here...but still good natured...

)

(Seriously knows the difference between expected behavior by design and a bug...writes software...to spec...)

(Usually complains when the spec is stupid...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-07-2009 at 10:02 PM.

stevebrot · 07-07-2009, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by kenyee

As a programmer, I'd call it a "feature" as well.

I agree w/ Edvinas though. Pretty dumb not to fix it in the K20D firmware...such a simple fix...

As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise.

Steve

stevebrot · 07-07-2009, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by wolfier

But plainly calling something a "bug", without an objective specification, irritates me from an engineer's perspective. We see a lot of these complaints from overly arrogant users who think their subjective point of view is a good representation of the entire population.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Of course, those of us in engineering know that our perspective is always correct! After all, we build the stuff! We obviously know the best solutions to every problem and are usually very upset when subjected to "re-work" just because some guy posts something on an online forum with his idea of how it is supposed to work.

Hummmph!

Steve

wasim_altaf · 07-07-2009, 10:07 PM

I've had the same issue with this bug/feature/trait/oversight with my k20d. I can't seem to get the ISO to increase to facilitate higher shutter speed in P mode for a given/metered exposure of a focused object. (Pointing the camera to a darker spot or putting the lens-cap on changes exposure reading; if the ISO happens to increase for this new reading, that doesn't mean that auto-ISO is behaving as intended -- intention being undefined). This isn't just limited to HyP, however, as I've tried the other settings available for P -- DOF, MTF, etc. -- with no avail.

There is also another variable in play: flash. At least my k20d seems reluctant to hike up the ISO until a shutter speed of 1.5/f has been reached (in my case 1/60s). Anything faster than that, I have a feeling that it prefers the flash be fired instead, knowing that the pop-up flash is readily available, thereby maintain low(er) ISO. Trouble is that I haven't found a way to tell the camera that the flash use is not an option, be it the pop-up one or an attached unit.

I wonder how auto-ISO might have behaved if the flash could be removed from the picture. Meanwhile I'm happy to use TAv instead.

octavmandru · 07-08-2009, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise.

Steve

These limitations are similar to those discussed in another thread regarding the flash sync speed and hss.
I own the k20 for less than a week, that's why i quoted from the manual. But more i dig into this, more i can feel the limitations. It looks like they didn't adapt much the program line since the days of mz-s.
However these limitations proove to be productive, at least in my case.
Do you know how much frustrating the operation of k200d is in the light of above?

Edvinas · 07-08-2009, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise.

Well, as a software developer you should know that bug-free software does not exist.

I remember that some years ago, when we, Auto ISO users, were complaining about Exposure compensation defeating Auto ISO, many dpreview forum members also were talking crap like "it's not possible", "too difficult to implement", "too many variables" and so on.

Being software developer myself, I knew, that implementation of Auto ISO and exposure compensation working together is very easy. Instead of metering light and passing the value to routines calculating shutter speed, aperture and ISO, meter the light adjust by the value of exposure compensation and pass the value to routines, calculating aperture, shutter speed and ISO. That's it. However many "engineers" like you were saying that it's impossible and so on. Pentax fixed it in K10D and I am sure that it was one line fix.

The same goes for Hyper Mode. Pentax fixed it in K-7, however you still are arguing that it works OK in K10D/K20D?! Well, well...

By the way, did you look at those links which I gave to you? They explain what hyper program is.

Did you try to read, understand and repeat the steps which lead to clear demonstration of the bug, we're talking about? I am sure you did not.

And, please, don't catch me by my words, as some of you did with that "P works as I expect to work". English isn't my native language, it isn't even my second language. Therefore I often have difficulty expressing myself. Thank you for your understanding.

stevebrot · 07-08-2009, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Edvinas

Well, as a software developer you should know that bug-free software does not exist.

Except for my software...

Quote:

I remember that some years ago, when we, Auto ISO users, were complaining about Exposure compensation defeating Auto ISO, many dpreview forum members also were talking crap like "it's not possible", "too difficult to implement", "too many variables" and so on.

Being software developer myself, I knew, that implementation of Auto ISO and exposure compensation working together is very easy. Instead of metering light and passing the value to routines calculating shutter speed, aperture and ISO, meter the light adjust by the value of exposure compensation and pass the value to routines, calculating aperture, shutter speed and ISO. That's it. However many "engineers" like you were saying that it's impossible and so on. Pentax fixed it in K10D and I am sure that it was one line fix.

The same goes for Hyper Mode. Pentax fixed it in K-7, however you still are arguing that it works OK in K10D/K20D?! Well, well...

By the way, did you look at those links which I gave to you? They explain what hyper program is.

Did you try to read, understand and repeat the steps which lead to clear demonstration of the bug, we're talking about? I am sure you did not.

And, please, don't catch me by my words, as some of you did with that "P works as I expect to work". English isn't my native language, it isn't even my second language. Therefore I often have difficulty expressing myself. Thank you for your understanding.

The answer is yes to all of your questions.

My general response is that a "bug" in my line of work is software that does not behave to spec. According to the manual that shipped with my camera, the auto-iso with hyper-program behaving as expected. However, I concur with you and other posters that the behavior may be clumsy or may not meet your expectation. A similar issue is the poor performance for stop-down metering. The camera behaves according to spec, but that behavior is dirt poor and unacceptable! Bug...no. Something that needs to be changed...yes.

Steve

(No need to apologize about language skills. English is my first language and, unfortunately, is pretty much my only language. I am ashamed to say it...)

(Part of the problem may be that I don't often use the hyper-program feature and also shoot at fixed ISO, so this is less of an issue for me.)

Last edited by stevebrot; 07-08-2009 at 09:36 AM.

snkenai · 07-08-2009, 10:15 AM

NOW we know what is the issue here. It is the same old conflict of thought that always comes up in product developement. Designer wants this but engineer says can no do. They eventially compromise. Then manufacturer has to try to make it happen. Then the repairman (mechanic in my case) berates everybody upline for making a product nearly impossible to service. The customer says WHY can I not get what I want. I am the one PAYING. And the bottom line is that very few people are really happy.

Steve N

0144 · 08-17-2009, 12:10 AM

It is quite strange i didn't notice anyone else complaining but Hyperprogram is still broken on k-7 with 1.01 firmware!

I really like P mode and shoot mostly using it. yesterday i wanted to do some panning shots and discovered this bug:

when auto-ISO is enabled, and you go to Tv mode by scrolling front wheel, ISO goes down and aperture decreases when you lower shutter speed up to f/5.6 and then stops there. you can play with front wheel as much as you want but i was unable to get shutter speed to my desired 1/30 in P mode.

i was using 50-135mm lens, also i tried various "priority" modes, they have no influence on this behavior. turning auto-ISO off, solves the issue.

it's pretty easy to replicate the problem - computer screen is bright enough - just point your lens to some white part of this forum and try to get your shutter speed down to some low value while having auto-ISO enabled.

0144 · 08-17-2009, 11:00 AM

i just tried it with different lenses and it's the same isue:
with auto iso and in P mode i'm unable to make shutter go slower than ISO100+f/5.6 and exponometer allows

can someone please confirm the isue? or am i the only one seeing this bug

Edvinas · 08-17-2009, 04:56 PM

No, you're not alone.

There's a huge thread on dpreview on this issue.

By the way, the aperture closing limit depends on Auto ISO range. The higher upper ISO range is set, the wider aperture stays.

Your aperture limit is f/5.6, that means your Auto ISO is 100-800

Make it 100-1600 and aperture won't close more than f/4. Make auto ISO 100-3200 and aperture won't close more than f/2.8...

Arpe · 08-17-2009, 05:28 PM

How very weird. What could possibly be the logic?

Edvinas · 08-17-2009, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Arpe

How very weird. What could possibly be the logic?

Why should you look for logic in software bug?

0144 · 08-17-2009, 10:54 PM

it's actualy 100-1600

anyway i hope they fix it in new firmware - with this bug P is more like Av to me

Edvinas · 08-18-2009, 05:08 AM

Viltis - kvailių motina

Tik neįsižeisk

K10D/K20D jie P taip ir nepataisė...

07-07-2009, 09:48 PM	#31
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Edvinas You're completely missing the point. lol101 already wrote: the essence of hyper program is that you seamlessly switch to Av (aperture priority) when you turn one wheel and to Tv (shutter speed priority) when you turn another wheel. It's that simple. Tv (shutter priority mode) must behave the same, it should not be different wether you choose Tv with mode dial or shoose Tv in Hyper program by turning front wheel. In K10D/K20D Tv and P->Tv behaves differently and that is a bug. In K-7 both Tv and P->Tv acts identically. I guess I did completely miss the point! Referring to the manual is for mental midgets...how stupid of me. How silly of Pentax to say that their feature works one way when it is obvious that it really does something different but is broken. Steve (In a seriously sarcastic mood here...but still good natured...) (Seriously knows the difference between expected behavior by design and a bug...writes software...to spec...) (Usually complains when the spec is stupid...) Last edited by stevebrot; 07-07-2009 at 10:02 PM.

07-08-2009, 10:15 AM	#38
snkenai Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 113	To bug or not to bug! NOW we know what is the issue here. It is the same old conflict of thought that always comes up in product developement. Designer wants this but engineer says can no do. They eventially compromise. Then manufacturer has to try to make it happen. Then the repairman (mechanic in my case) berates everybody upline for making a product nearly impossible to service. The customer says WHY can I not get what I want. I am the one PAYING. And the bottom line is that very few people are really happy. Steve N

08-17-2009, 12:10 AM	#39
0144 Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Lithuania Posts: 38	hperprogram still buggy in k-7 It is quite strange i didn't notice anyone else complaining but Hyperprogram is still broken on k-7 with 1.01 firmware! I really like P mode and shoot mostly using it. yesterday i wanted to do some panning shots and discovered this bug: when auto-ISO is enabled, and you go to Tv mode by scrolling front wheel, ISO goes down and aperture decreases when you lower shutter speed up to f/5.6 and then stops there. you can play with front wheel as much as you want but i was unable to get shutter speed to my desired 1/30 in P mode. i was using 50-135mm lens, also i tried various "priority" modes, they have no influence on this behavior. turning auto-ISO off, solves the issue. it's pretty easy to replicate the problem - computer screen is bright enough - just point your lens to some white part of this forum and try to get your shutter speed down to some low value while having auto-ISO enabled.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Auto ISO in manual mode	yusuf	Pentax DSLR Discussion	37	03-10-2012 05:44 PM
[Auto-ISO] so, is the K5 and Kr brave enough to use max iso?	Reportage	Pentax K-5 & K-5 II	13	10-24-2010 03:30 PM
k20d auto ISO in TAv mode	wiyum	Pentax DSLR Discussion	10	08-13-2008 05:18 PM
auto ISO in M mode? not option?	Akcelik	Pentax DSLR Discussion	4	03-07-2007 05:38 PM
K10D. Bug with Auto ISO in P mode?	Edvinas	Pentax DSLR Discussion	21	12-30-2006 05:47 PM

07-07-2009, 09:57 PM	#32
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by kenyee As a programmer, I'd call it a "feature" as well. I agree w/ Edvinas though. Pretty dumb not to fix it in the K20D firmware...such a simple fix... As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise. Steve

07-07-2009, 10:00 PM	#33
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by wolfier But plainly calling something a "bug", without an objective specification, irritates me from an engineer's perspective. We see a lot of these complaints from overly arrogant users who think their subjective point of view is a good representation of the entire population. Ha! Ha! Ha! Of course, those of us in engineering know that our perspective is always correct! After all, we build the stuff! We obviously know the best solutions to every problem and are usually very upset when subjected to "re-work" just because some guy posts something on an online forum with his idea of how it is supposed to work. Hummmph! Steve

07-07-2009, 10:07 PM	#34
wasim_altaf Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Salem, MA Posts: 145	I've had the same issue with this bug/feature/trait/oversight with my k20d. I can't seem to get the ISO to increase to facilitate higher shutter speed in P mode for a given/metered exposure of a focused object. (Pointing the camera to a darker spot or putting the lens-cap on changes exposure reading; if the ISO happens to increase for this new reading, that doesn't mean that auto-ISO is behaving as intended -- intention being undefined). This isn't just limited to HyP, however, as I've tried the other settings available for P -- DOF, MTF, etc. -- with no avail. There is also another variable in play: flash. At least my k20d seems reluctant to hike up the ISO until a shutter speed of 1.5/f has been reached (in my case 1/60s). Anything faster than that, I have a feeling that it prefers the flash be fired instead, knowing that the pop-up flash is readily available, thereby maintain low(er) ISO. Trouble is that I haven't found a way to tell the camera that the flash use is not an option, be it the pop-up one or an attached unit. I wonder how auto-ISO might have behaved if the flash could be removed from the picture. Meanwhile I'm happy to use TAv instead.

07-08-2009, 05:10 AM	#35
octavmandru Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: somewhere around Posts: 615	Originally posted by stevebrot As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise. Steve These limitations are similar to those discussed in another thread regarding the flash sync speed and hss. I own the k20 for less than a week, that's why i quoted from the manual. But more i dig into this, more i can feel the limitations. It looks like they didn't adapt much the program line since the days of mz-s. However these limitations proove to be productive, at least in my case. Do you know how much frustrating the operation of k200d is in the light of above?

07-08-2009, 06:31 AM	#36
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot As a programmer, I would suggest that this evidence of a limit of design. Hyperprogram adheres to the program line. Changing the ISO dynamically introduces an indeterminate factor. While this would not be insurmountable, I am pretty confident that this "bug" was known during design phase and that the current behavior was deemed a reasonable compromise. Well, as a software developer you should know that bug-free software does not exist. I remember that some years ago, when we, Auto ISO users, were complaining about Exposure compensation defeating Auto ISO, many dpreview forum members also were talking crap like "it's not possible", "too difficult to implement", "too many variables" and so on. Being software developer myself, I knew, that implementation of Auto ISO and exposure compensation working together is very easy. Instead of metering light and passing the value to routines calculating shutter speed, aperture and ISO, meter the light adjust by the value of exposure compensation and pass the value to routines, calculating aperture, shutter speed and ISO. That's it. However many "engineers" like you were saying that it's impossible and so on. Pentax fixed it in K10D and I am sure that it was one line fix. The same goes for Hyper Mode. Pentax fixed it in K-7, however you still are arguing that it works OK in K10D/K20D?! Well, well... By the way, did you look at those links which I gave to you? They explain what hyper program is. Did you try to read, understand and repeat the steps which lead to clear demonstration of the bug, we're talking about? I am sure you did not. And, please, don't catch me by my words, as some of you did with that "P works as I expect to work". English isn't my native language, it isn't even my second language. Therefore I often have difficulty expressing myself. Thank you for your understanding.

07-08-2009, 09:30 AM	#37
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Edvinas Well, as a software developer you should know that bug-free software does not exist. Except for my software... Quote: I remember that some years ago, when we, Auto ISO users, were complaining about Exposure compensation defeating Auto ISO, many dpreview forum members also were talking crap like "it's not possible", "too difficult to implement", "too many variables" and so on. Being software developer myself, I knew, that implementation of Auto ISO and exposure compensation working together is very easy. Instead of metering light and passing the value to routines calculating shutter speed, aperture and ISO, meter the light adjust by the value of exposure compensation and pass the value to routines, calculating aperture, shutter speed and ISO. That's it. However many "engineers" like you were saying that it's impossible and so on. Pentax fixed it in K10D and I am sure that it was one line fix. The same goes for Hyper Mode. Pentax fixed it in K-7, however you still are arguing that it works OK in K10D/K20D?! Well, well... By the way, did you look at those links which I gave to you? They explain what hyper program is. Did you try to read, understand and repeat the steps which lead to clear demonstration of the bug, we're talking about? I am sure you did not. And, please, don't catch me by my words, as some of you did with that "P works as I expect to work". English isn't my native language, it isn't even my second language. Therefore I often have difficulty expressing myself. Thank you for your understanding. The answer is yes to all of your questions. My general response is that a "bug" in my line of work is software that does not behave to spec. According to the manual that shipped with my camera, the auto-iso with hyper-program behaving as expected. However, I concur with you and other posters that the behavior may be clumsy or may not meet your expectation. A similar issue is the poor performance for stop-down metering. The camera behaves according to spec, but that behavior is dirt poor and unacceptable! Bug...no. Something that needs to be changed...yes. Steve (No need to apologize about language skills. English is my first language and, unfortunately, is pretty much my only language. I am ashamed to say it...) (Part of the problem may be that I don't often use the hyper-program feature and also shoot at fixed ISO, so this is less of an issue for me.) Last edited by stevebrot; 07-08-2009 at 09:36 AM.

08-17-2009, 11:00 AM	#40
0144 Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Lithuania Posts: 38	i just tried it with different lenses and it's the same isue: with auto iso and in P mode i'm unable to make shutter go slower than ISO100+f/5.6 and exponometer allows can someone please confirm the isue? or am i the only one seeing this bug

08-17-2009, 04:56 PM	#41
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	No, you're not alone. There's a huge thread on dpreview on this issue. By the way, the aperture closing limit depends on Auto ISO range. The higher upper ISO range is set, the wider aperture stays. Your aperture limit is f/5.6, that means your Auto ISO is 100-800 Make it 100-1600 and aperture won't close more than f/4. Make auto ISO 100-3200 and aperture won't close more than f/2.8...

08-17-2009, 05:28 PM	#42
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	How very weird. What could possibly be the logic?

08-17-2009, 06:49 PM	#43
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	Originally posted by Arpe How very weird. What could possibly be the logic? Why should you look for logic in software bug?

08-17-2009, 10:54 PM	#44
0144 Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Lithuania Posts: 38	it's actualy 100-1600 anyway i hope they fix it in new firmware - with this bug P is more like Av to me

08-18-2009, 05:08 AM	#45
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	Viltis - kvailių motina Tik neįsižeisk K10D/K20D jie P taip ir nepataisė...