K-7: Auto ISO in P mode is finally fixed

stevebrot · 07-05-2009, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Edvinas

No, it does not. Set to P and adjust shutter speed. Increase it. First, camera will be opening lens aperture. When the widest lens aperture is reached, Auto ISO should kick in and increase sensitivity. However it doesn't and you're not allowed to increase shutter speed anymore.

What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual:

Quote:

"You can only set the shutter speed to a value that will give a correct exposure with the aperture range of the lens being used."

My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode?

Steve

lol101 · 07-05-2009, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual:

My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode?

Steve

A reasonable behaviour would be that HyP should react like Tv when using one wheel, Av when using the other... regardless of using auto-ISO or not.

In auto ISO, ISO increases when you hit max aperture in Tv but not in HyP/Tv: that should not be the case, they should just behave the same.

The best proof of that is that Pentax apparently corrected this wrong behavior on the K-7.

As for the reason one would want to use the camera this way, well... why not?

Edvinas · 07-06-2009, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual:

My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode?

Steve

You're completely missing the point.

lol101 already wrote: the essence of hyper program is that you seamlessly switch to Av (aperture priority) when you turn one wheel and to Tv (shutter speed priority) when you turn another wheel. It's that simple.

Tv (shutter priority mode) must behave the same, it should not be different wether you choose Tv with mode dial or shoose Tv in Hyper program by turning front wheel.

In K10D/K20D Tv and P->Tv behaves differently and that is a bug. In K-7 both Tv and P->Tv acts identically.

Arpe · 07-06-2009, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by nostatic

Well, when you hit the button the flux capacitor charges and sends 1.21 gigawatts to the hyper-drive, allowing you to change the shutter speed to 1/1,000,000 of a second until it melts down and explodes at twice the speed of light.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

LMAO!!

wolfier · 07-06-2009, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Edvinas

For me it's clearly a bug. And they fixed it in K-7. K-7 P mode acts exactly the way I expect it to act.

To you, it probably is. To everyone else, I'm not so sure. HyperP is not the same as Tv, and NOWHERE was it advertised to work *identically* as Tv.

A bug is something that doesn't work as specified. You can say it does not meet your expectation, that's fine, because expectation is subjective.

However, saying that something is a bug needs an objective measure. Unless there's a proof that it works differently than a specification or an advertisement, it's not a "bug".

How do you know there aren't a sizeable number of people who like the behaviour of the K20D HyperP? They may complain there's a "bug" in K-7, because they expect the ISO to remain unchanged and not make their images noisier - when instead it's just not meeting their subjective expectations.

So, your complaining that it's a "bug" on a K20D is just like those who're used to the way things work on the K20D complaining that the K-7 has a "bug".

The K-7 is just designed differently. To fix a bug is not the only reason why behaviours can be updated. So apparently the K-7 having this behaviour changed cannot be used a as "proof" that the K20D behaviour is defective.

It's just like saying because the K-7 has a 100% viewfinder, the 95% viewfinder on the K20D is a bug.

Arpe · 07-06-2009, 05:33 PM

Seems strange then in the K20D that auto-ISO works differently in Hyper-programme between the Av mode and the Tv mode intitialised by the turn of one of the dials. Also strange if it wasn't "broken" in the first place, that they have now fixed it on the K-7.

lol101 · 07-06-2009, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by wolfier

To you, it probably is. To everyone else, I'm not so sure. HyperP is not the same as Tv, and NOWHERE was it advertised to work *identically* as Tv.

A bug is something that doesn't work as specified. You can say it does not meet your expectation, that's fine, because expectation is subjective.

However, saying that something is a bug needs an objective measure. Unless there's a proof that it works differently than a specification or an advertisement, it's not a "bug".

How do you know there aren't a sizeable number of people who like the behaviour of the K20D HyperP? They may complain there's a "bug" in K-7, because they expect the ISO to remain unchanged and not make their images noisier - when instead it's just not meeting their subjective expectations.

So, your complaining that it's a "bug" on a K20D is just like those who're used to the way things work on the K20D complaining that the K-7 has a "bug".

The K-7 is just designed differently. To fix a bug is not the only reason why behaviours can be updated. So apparently the K-7 having this behaviour changed cannot be used a as "proof" that the K20D behaviour is defective.

It's just like saying because the K-7 has a 100% viewfinder, the 95% viewfinder on the K20D is a bug.

It is the very essence of HyP to offer seamless switch between a classical P mode, Tv and Av, at least it is the way Pentax advertise it since 1992.

Maybe they changed their philosophy on the K10/K20 to "HyP allows the user to switch seamlessly between P, Tv and Av... except for Tv with auto ISO where it doesn't quite react like the Tv mode..." but it looks a little bit too complicated to suit Pentax's straightforward and rather intuitive ergonomics IMHO... my vote also goes for a (rather small) bug...

It is always amazing to see to what length some will go to justify that Pentax always do the right thing... even if Pentax themselves acknowledge the "problem" and come up with a fix... :ugh:

OK, OK, this is no bug, it's a feature that differentiate Tv from HyP/Tv... we're just happy that it was corrected on K-7

wolfier · 07-06-2009, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by lol101

It is always amazing to see to what length some will go to justify that Pentax always do the right thing... even if Pentax themselves acknowledge the "problem" and come up with a fix... :ugh:

OK, OK, this is no bug, it's a feature that differentiate Tv from HyP/Tv... we're just happy that it was corrected on K-7

Well, if you look at my post history here and on dpreview, I'm hardly the type of posters who think Pentax always does the right thing. A lot of my posts get rebuked by RMabo over there, if it means anything to you in this regard.

But plainly calling something a "bug", without an objective specification, irritates me from an engineer's perspective. We see a lot of these complaints from overly arrogant users who think their subjective point of view is a good representation of the entire population.

falconeye · 07-07-2009, 05:08 AM

Originally posted by Edvinas

With front e-dial decrease shutter speed to 1/30. aperture will stay at f/2.8, ISO will become 200. Then try to go back to initial shutter speed 1/60s. Camera won't allow this.

I wasn't aware of the issue.

But after Edvinas excellent description of the bug in post #13, how can anybody still be argueing about it?

Shaking head ...

Edvinas · 07-07-2009, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I wasn't aware of the issue.

But after Edvinas excellent description of the bug in post #13, how can anybody still be argueing about it?

Shaking head ...

Yep, I thought that after step-by-step description how to reproduce that bug, people at least would try to reproduce it and to understand what hyper program really is.

Most funny, that they are telling that we're wrong, however themselves they don't really know and can't explain what the Hyper Program is.

Take a look here. Links to official pentax explanation what Hyper Program is for K10D, K20D and K-7:
K10D : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX
K20D : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX
K-7 : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX

As you can see it's absolutely the same for all cameras and the whole point of Hyper program is that you can seamlessly switch to Tv or Av by turning wront/back wheels, without playing with Mode dial. It is that simple. No need to create mystic about Hyper Program.

Many people don't use Auto ISO and they would never encounter bug we're writing about. Many people who use Auto ISO actually don't understand the algorithm how Auto ISO works... and then start to create stories about Pentax not increasing ISO because they don't want to make images nosier... Why then Pentax implemented Auto ISO at all?! Don't just read manuals, they don't tell many things, use your camera and most importanly use your brain

Anyway, I am happy that in K-7 they have fixed it

falconeye · 07-07-2009, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Edvinas

and most importanly use your brain

But the brain is horribly complex and didn't come with a user manual.

Arpe · 07-07-2009, 05:47 PM

I don't call it a "bug". I call it an outright error, mistake or Monday Programming, which should have been fixed in subsequent firmware updates.

Class A · 07-07-2009, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Arpe

I call it an outright error, mistake or Monday Programming, ...

In software development all of the above is referred to as a "bug".

Originally posted by Arpe

...which should have been fixed in subsequent firmware updates.

Lord knows why they don't provide such updates. Perhaps you should look at it positively and view it as an excuse to update to the K-7. Say "Thank you Pentax, for giving me an excuse."

nostatic · 07-07-2009, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Class A

In software development all of the above is referred to as a "bug".

Marketing department calls it a "feature"

kenyee · 07-07-2009, 07:20 PM

As a programmer, I'd call it a "feature" as well.

I agree w/ Edvinas though. Pretty dumb not to fix it in the K20D firmware...such a simple fix...

07-06-2009, 12:30 PM	#20
wolfier Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 123	Originally posted by Edvinas For me it's clearly a bug. And they fixed it in K-7. K-7 P mode acts exactly the way I expect it to act. To you, it probably is. To everyone else, I'm not so sure. HyperP is not the same as Tv, and NOWHERE was it advertised to work identically as Tv. A bug is something that doesn't work as specified. You can say it does not meet your expectation, that's fine, because expectation is subjective. However, saying that something is a bug needs an objective measure. Unless there's a proof that it works differently than a specification or an advertisement, it's not a "bug". How do you know there aren't a sizeable number of people who like the behaviour of the K20D HyperP? They may complain there's a "bug" in K-7, because they expect the ISO to remain unchanged and not make their images noisier - when instead it's just not meeting their subjective expectations. So, your complaining that it's a "bug" on a K20D is just like those who're used to the way things work on the K20D complaining that the K-7 has a "bug". The K-7 is just designed differently. To fix a bug is not the only reason why behaviours can be updated. So apparently the K-7 having this behaviour changed cannot be used a as "proof" that the K20D behaviour is defective. It's just like saying because the K-7 has a 100% viewfinder, the 95% viewfinder on the K20D is a bug. Last edited by wolfier; 07-06-2009 at 12:37 PM.

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07-05-2009, 08:28 PM	#16
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Edvinas No, it does not. Set to P and adjust shutter speed. Increase it. First, camera will be opening lens aperture. When the widest lens aperture is reached, Auto ISO should kick in and increase sensitivity. However it doesn't and you're not allowed to increase shutter speed anymore. What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual: Quote: "You can only set the shutter speed to a value that will give a correct exposure with the aperture range of the lens being used." My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode? Steve

07-05-2009, 10:37 PM	#17
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by stevebrot What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual: My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode? Steve A reasonable behaviour would be that HyP should react like Tv when using one wheel, Av when using the other... regardless of using auto-ISO or not. In auto ISO, ISO increases when you hit max aperture in Tv but not in HyP/Tv: that should not be the case, they should just behave the same. The best proof of that is that Pentax apparently corrected this wrong behavior on the K-7. As for the reason one would want to use the camera this way, well... why not?

07-06-2009, 01:42 AM	#18
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot What you are describing sounds like a reasonable behavior, but I don't think it reasonably qualifies as a bug. A limitation of a feature yes, but a failure of a documented feature, no. As noted above from the manual: My big question is why anyone would want to use hyperprogram that way. If you already know the preferred aperture and shutter speed, why not just use TAv mode? Steve You're completely missing the point. lol101 already wrote: the essence of hyper program is that you seamlessly switch to Av (aperture priority) when you turn one wheel and to Tv (shutter speed priority) when you turn another wheel. It's that simple. Tv (shutter priority mode) must behave the same, it should not be different wether you choose Tv with mode dial or shoose Tv in Hyper program by turning front wheel. In K10D/K20D Tv and P->Tv behaves differently and that is a bug. In K-7 both Tv and P->Tv acts identically.

07-06-2009, 01:47 AM	#19
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Originally posted by nostatic Well, when you hit the button the flux capacitor charges and sends 1.21 gigawatts to the hyper-drive, allowing you to change the shutter speed to 1/1,000,000 of a second until it melts down and explodes at twice the speed of light. It's not a bug, it's a feature. LMAO!!

07-06-2009, 05:33 PM	#21
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	Seems strange then in the K20D that auto-ISO works differently in Hyper-programme between the Av mode and the Tv mode intitialised by the turn of one of the dials. Also strange if it wasn't "broken" in the first place, that they have now fixed it on the K-7.

07-06-2009, 10:43 PM	#22
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by wolfier To you, it probably is. To everyone else, I'm not so sure. HyperP is not the same as Tv, and NOWHERE was it advertised to work identically as Tv. A bug is something that doesn't work as specified. You can say it does not meet your expectation, that's fine, because expectation is subjective. However, saying that something is a bug needs an objective measure. Unless there's a proof that it works differently than a specification or an advertisement, it's not a "bug". How do you know there aren't a sizeable number of people who like the behaviour of the K20D HyperP? They may complain there's a "bug" in K-7, because they expect the ISO to remain unchanged and not make their images noisier - when instead it's just not meeting their subjective expectations. So, your complaining that it's a "bug" on a K20D is just like those who're used to the way things work on the K20D complaining that the K-7 has a "bug". The K-7 is just designed differently. To fix a bug is not the only reason why behaviours can be updated. So apparently the K-7 having this behaviour changed cannot be used a as "proof" that the K20D behaviour is defective. It's just like saying because the K-7 has a 100% viewfinder, the 95% viewfinder on the K20D is a bug. It is the very essence of HyP to offer seamless switch between a classical P mode, Tv and Av, at least it is the way Pentax advertise it since 1992. Maybe they changed their philosophy on the K10/K20 to "HyP allows the user to switch seamlessly between P, Tv and Av... except for Tv with auto ISO where it doesn't quite react like the Tv mode..." but it looks a little bit too complicated to suit Pentax's straightforward and rather intuitive ergonomics IMHO... my vote also goes for a (rather small) bug... It is always amazing to see to what length some will go to justify that Pentax always do the right thing... even if Pentax themselves acknowledge the "problem" and come up with a fix... :ugh: OK, OK, this is no bug, it's a feature that differentiate Tv from HyP/Tv... we're just happy that it was corrected on K-7

07-06-2009, 10:51 PM	#23
wolfier Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 123	Originally posted by lol101 It is always amazing to see to what length some will go to justify that Pentax always do the right thing... even if Pentax themselves acknowledge the "problem" and come up with a fix... :ugh: OK, OK, this is no bug, it's a feature that differentiate Tv from HyP/Tv... we're just happy that it was corrected on K-7 Well, if you look at my post history here and on dpreview, I'm hardly the type of posters who think Pentax always does the right thing. A lot of my posts get rebuked by RMabo over there, if it means anything to you in this regard. But plainly calling something a "bug", without an objective specification, irritates me from an engineer's perspective. We see a lot of these complaints from overly arrogant users who think their subjective point of view is a good representation of the entire population.

07-07-2009, 05:08 AM	#24
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Edvinas With front e-dial decrease shutter speed to 1/30. aperture will stay at f/2.8, ISO will become 200. Then try to go back to initial shutter speed 1/60s. Camera won't allow this. I wasn't aware of the issue. But after Edvinas excellent description of the bug in post #13, how can anybody still be argueing about it? Shaking head ...

07-07-2009, 06:18 AM	#25
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458 Original Poster	Originally posted by falconeye I wasn't aware of the issue. But after Edvinas excellent description of the bug in post #13, how can anybody still be argueing about it? Shaking head ... Yep, I thought that after step-by-step description how to reproduce that bug, people at least would try to reproduce it and to understand what hyper program really is. Most funny, that they are telling that we're wrong, however themselves they don't really know and can't explain what the Hyper Program is. Take a look here. Links to official pentax explanation what Hyper Program is for K10D, K20D and K-7: K10D : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX K20D : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX K-7 : Digital SLR Cameras : PENTAX As you can see it's absolutely the same for all cameras and the whole point of Hyper program is that you can seamlessly switch to Tv or Av by turning wront/back wheels, without playing with Mode dial. It is that simple. No need to create mystic about Hyper Program. Many people don't use Auto ISO and they would never encounter bug we're writing about. Many people who use Auto ISO actually don't understand the algorithm how Auto ISO works... and then start to create stories about Pentax not increasing ISO because they don't want to make images nosier... Why then Pentax implemented Auto ISO at all?! Don't just read manuals, they don't tell many things, use your camera and most importanly use your brain Anyway, I am happy that in K-7 they have fixed it

07-07-2009, 06:36 AM	#26
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Edvinas and most importanly use your brain But the brain is horribly complex and didn't come with a user manual.

07-07-2009, 05:47 PM	#27
Arpe Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,452	I don't call it a "bug". I call it an outright error, mistake or Monday Programming, which should have been fixed in subsequent firmware updates.

07-07-2009, 06:44 PM	#28
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Arpe I call it an outright error, mistake or Monday Programming, ... In software development all of the above is referred to as a "bug". Originally posted by Arpe ...which should have been fixed in subsequent firmware updates. Lord knows why they don't provide such updates. Perhaps you should look at it positively and view it as an excuse to update to the K-7. Say "Thank you Pentax, for giving me an excuse."

07-07-2009, 06:51 PM	#29
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by Class A In software development all of the above is referred to as a "bug". Marketing department calls it a "feature"

07-07-2009, 07:20 PM	#30
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	As a programmer, I'd call it a "feature" as well. I agree w/ Edvinas though. Pretty dumb not to fix it in the K20D firmware...such a simple fix...