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08-01-2009, 08:29 AM   #271
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(Pure speculation at this moment)
It may not even be directly sensor related at all, more related to the temperature of the electronic circuitry inside the camera chamber (heated up by the sensor for sure). It is very common for the interplay of temperature and tolerances of electronic components to cause problems.

Many of the electronic equipment which surround us (even from very well known brands) have minor issues, you probably won't even notice any difference in functionality. People like me, who work in the electronics engineering industry, will have them buried somewhere in internal e-mails and confidential warranty service manuals.

A digital camera, on the other hand, produces a visual output, and the human eye is incredibly good at finding any flaws in the end result.

It all sounds a bit like Pentax really rushed through the development of the K-7...
I hope it doesn't irretrievably damage this camera's prospects.....it really has a great potential for producing great pictures, but right now, at least some units look crippled.

08-01-2009, 08:46 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
It all sounds a bit like Pentax really rushed through the development of the K-7..
I'm not sure how you can really draw that conclusion from this though...

Modern digital cameras are immensely complicated beasts, and while this green line thing is surely annoying for some people, it's quite subtle, and since it only occurs in certain circumstances, is exactly the sort of issue which can slip by testing and get discovered only in wide release.

Remember the Canon highlights-have-black-spots thing? Man, people were freaking out about that...
08-01-2009, 08:56 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by snogglethorpe Quote
I'm not sure how you can really draw that conclusion from this though...

Modern digital cameras are immensely complicated beasts, and while this green line thing is surely annoying for some people, it's quite subtle, and since it only occurs in certain circumstances, is exactly the sort of issue which can slip by testing and get discovered only in wide release.

Remember the Canon highlights-have-black-spots thing? Man, people were freaking out about that...
But the canon 5d mk2 black dot blown highlights was a software issue, not hardware, the firmware simply turned the blown white as black in files, simple fix, this is a bit more than that as those lines are random across the k7 production lines, some get it some don't and while we know it occurs in relation to heat the heat it self may not be the issue or the sensor for that matter.
08-01-2009, 05:19 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Olivier Quote
Over the 5 minutes I ran this last test the reported camera temperature went from 25 to 27 degrees C, with the green line showing up around 26 degrees.
Quick update: The above was from a test where I had tried to reproduce the problem using live view to heat up the sensor. However, today was a warm day and many of the pictures I took had a green line, even some that were taken at our (air conditioned) home. Temperature for the affected pictures was around 31-33 degrees C.

The camera is going back to Amazon. Let's hope the replacement works better. I would really hate going back to my K100D after having used the K-7

08-01-2009, 06:35 PM   #275
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I just took my replacement camera to Bakersfield and took both video and pictures sitting outside at a car wash. Then I went to our local festival and walked around in the sun, taking both video and pictures. This camera doesn't heat up as quickly as my previous one - it only got to 31 C when I was in Bakersfield (and it wasn't exactly cool there today). It was much more comfortable at the local festival, but still not cool and I took more pictures. Some pictures were taken at 36 C, which was hot enough to show the green line on my previous camera after a couple of movie clips. No lines anywhere with this new camera at all.

I wonder if some cameras had a problem with whatever they used for cooling the sensors? The conditions I was in today (hot day, a couple of video clips, longer than the previous sort, like view use then still pictures) were the same that triggered the other camera I had. In any case, I'm a very happy camper and have much more faith that this camera will work correctly, even in SoCal heat.

Olivier - both my cameras came from Amazon, by the way.
08-01-2009, 08:48 PM   #276
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ok..... got the camera upto 44deg C. This was movie mode for 35mins in the sun.

Below is a pic, sorry, it's a JPG, don't know if it helps or not.

On the raw I can see i tiny faint line but bit if zoom all the way in.... essentially i can't tell if there is a line or not.

What is the best PP settings to highlight the line if it exists?


08-01-2009, 09:01 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtngal Quote
In any case, I'm a very happy camper and have much more faith that this camera will work correctly, even in SoCal heat.

Olivier - both my cameras came from Amazon, by the way.
can you post what PhotoMe reports after opening any raw file from the camera ?

I mean these tags (manufacture date, production id, internal serial number) :

08-01-2009, 09:35 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by snogglethorpe Quote
...while this green line thing is surely annoying for some people, it's quite subtle, and since it only occurs in certain circumstances, is exactly the sort of issue which can slip by testing and get discovered only in wide release.
If Pentax didn't thoroughly stress test their equipment before roll out they'd be stupid. They are not. Hence I'm assuming it is some production problem, i.e., a perfectly built K-7 with non-faulty components will not exhibit the problem, but some circumstance in mass production creates the green line problem in certain conditions.

If my assumption is correct (I've seen it happen in another company) then Pentax will "just" have to find out where things go wrong in production and/or QC and fix the problem.

Similar things have happened to other companies. Nothing to draw big conclusions from.The Canon EOS-1D Mark III had a big AF problem in the beginning. This from a major player in the n^th refinement of a camera model.

08-01-2009, 10:23 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by snogglethorpe Quote
I'm not sure how you can really draw that conclusion from this though...

Modern digital cameras are immensely complicated beasts, and while this green line thing is surely annoying for some people, it's quite subtle, and since it only occurs in certain circumstances, is exactly the sort of issue which can slip by testing and get discovered only in wide release.

Remember the Canon highlights-have-black-spots thing? Man, people were freaking out about that...
I agree with ya 10000%...it is going to take time. But everything is in how the issue is handled by HoyaTax to back up the hard work by the Pentax part of the biz...

To me though, the thing is if this is a situation, and I agree it has to be a strange alignment of the hardware stars for some unlucky folks...but if this is a component level issue, what is to say ALL of the units produced so far have the potential, at some time, to see this green line syndrome. Plus what will it mean to the functioning lifespan of the body? What if some have the component which just stops ever so short of the failure where the line becomes visible...that means it is going to run hotter all the time and it will have a shorter lifespan. That part if a fact for electronic components which run hotter...the live shorter lives.

I am not saying that to be hard on Pentax, it's a good, maybe even a great body. If HoyaTax does not own up to it fully disclosing the problem, and bodies begin dropping like flies after the warranty expires, what will those folks feel like? I especially mean those who were never even aware of the issue as it exists today?

My sense is the old guard Pentax hold-overs will win out in a battle of ethics and people will eventually be told for certain what the problem is...it might just be the sort of thing that is very difficult to nail down.

It is OT but here is an example of a similar scenario I experienced around 1991 or so. I was once working as the assistant IT Director and head programmer (means I did everything but scrub toilets...hehehe) for an environmental engineering corp. The companies Analytical lab was running QNX OS for their NOS...we had an issue where some end of the day staff work was not showing up in the system the following day.

First we assumed the person who's job it was had been blowing it off...because when I entered the data the next day to try and troubleshoot the issue, nothing it worked fine...and some days when she entered the data no problems at all...we checked the code a hundred times over, the hardware, everything...then after a couple months of frustration I spent a week everyday with her entering data in the afternoon...then one day I finally figured it out, mind you this was after I got them to switch over to Netware because it was all just too weird for a mission critical app...what I figured out was we had the workstations setup to use 7 virtual screens, no biggie, but the thing was, for the database we were using the buffer was never written out if you did not log out from screen the screen running the app...if you only exited the app back the the menu, returned to another screen and then logged out, the buffer never emptied so nothing really was sent to the DB even if the app said it was...and it was by complete accident I found the problem. And myself and the rest of the IT staff spend 100s of hours trying to figure out not just what was going on, but why, even the developers of the DB as well as the QNX folks themselves could not offer any help. One day while working with her those stars aligned and *poof* the answer was obvious, hell there was nothing else left...you shudda seen the Lab Director's face when I "casually" mentioned "...oh, btw, I solved the DB issue..." as I scuttled past him at the end of that day....hehehehe...even he thought it was funny, then again he never knew what to make of us anyway...that is another story. Fun times...

I have a sense this thing with the K7 is like that...it's going to take patience from both Pentax and us as customers. It stinks because I know it is going to stop me from buying one , even if the price drops sooner. But I am waiting until the issue is found, fixed and all users are happy.

I have a feeling also there is a lot of frustration for the good folks in the Pentax side of HoyaTax...obviously they put a LOT of effort into building a great bit of gear, enough to grab my fancy (then again I like shiny objects anyway...hehehehe) I just don't want to see this issue "sink their battleship". I mean I FINALLY find a camera line I LIKE and don't feel weird about and, dang it, something goes wrong...hey, maybe it is MY FAULT?

I mean it's because of a couple of Falk's reviews that I made the switch to being with...and I gave him full blame right away...so perhaps it was my Pocket Murphy Field Generator I often seem to carry around... BTW, mine is made an marketed by Ron Popeil. Heck, i still have a Pocket Fisherman in my pickup...because on of these days I will actually catch a fish with the danged thing!!
08-01-2009, 10:29 PM   #280
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It looks like there will be some "refurbs" comming to the maket, I can't wait!

08-02-2009, 05:08 AM   #281
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Roland Mabo states that Samsung got QC issues with their sensor production.
Using a "glass half full" kind of attitude this hopefully means that there is no severe K-7 problem and that the "green line" can be fixed by Samsung hopefully sooner than later.
08-02-2009, 07:31 AM   #282
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These a really bad captures but they show a line i've complained about before appearing in my video mode.

It's most apparent when I locked the camera on a bright source then point the camera to a very dark spot, a vertical line is clearly visible.
Attached Images
   
08-02-2009, 10:56 PM   #283
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I just inspected the RAW files again, all files were between 42 and 44deg C. At various ISOs.

NO GREEN LINE.

If your email accepts 20Mb attachments, let me know and I'll mail you some files if you wish to double check them.

Even in summer.... don't know if I will ever get the camera that hot.

cheers
mike
08-03-2009, 02:38 AM   #284
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Yesterday I took around 200 pictures with my K7. When I got home and uploaded my photos to the computer, I saw that the second half of the batch had the green line! After finding this thread, I downloaded PhotoMe and verified that when I started taking the photos the temperature field in the metadata of the photos shows 21C. When the temperature reaches 27C, the photos start to show the defect as the two crops below demonstrate:

View Picture EXIF
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For info, the serial number of my K7 starts with 338XXXX. I don't know what to do now but I think that the only logical course of action is contacting Pentax Australia and trying to get it fixed or replaced (the web shop from which I bought the camera doesn't accept returns).
08-03-2009, 03:04 AM   #285
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I've had a somewhat related problem with the K20D. But instead of a very faint line, I have a very thick band in the image. Take a look here to see some samples: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/68205-k20d-sensor-malfunction.html
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