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08-29-2009, 04:17 AM   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
I haven't seen it mentioned here but it popped up in a conversation I had earlier.
Is there a possibility that the weather sealing could have something to do with this issue?
After all, if it stops the weather getting in, logically it could prevent something like heat dissipation from the inside.
Mornin' Gary,

Earlier I mentioned the sealing as it relates to a decrease in the internal air volume from the smaller body. And my thought was while the air volume might be less, there is the Mg-Alloy body which functions as a far superior "heat sink" than the plastic bodies of the K10/20D's. Wearing my amateur physics hat, the heat transfer would have a double edged sword in that under warmer ambient conditions the case might actually work to maintain a slightly higher internal/in-body temp. Still as the internal temps will probably almost maybe possibably potentially be higher, heat will still flow out, only at a much slower rate with a higher equilibrium temp when working in higher outdoor ambient temps. Remember all systems always seek their lowest energy state, in this case the lowest possible operating temp.


Well, I think I can get a couple more hrs sleep...glad I peeked in!!


Last edited by brecklundin; 08-29-2009 at 04:48 AM. Reason: more speel chack errors.. ;)
08-29-2009, 04:40 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
Just know there are many of us out here who indeed appreciate the work of all the testers
Thanks for the nice words.
QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
Is there a possibility that the weather sealing could have something to do with this issue?
I thought about it as well and probably, the presence of seals makes no difference as there wouldn't be any significant air flow anyway.

Then, the magnesium metal alloy body will certainly help a lot to dissipate the heat. The body can get pretty warm (hot at some isolated points) when recording video and this surely helps. Maybe one of the reasons why D90 has bigger problems with video.

The fact that the body is black will help too as long as the body doesn't receive sun shine. As soon as it does it will be a problem.

The SR mechanics may cause an obstacle for sensor heat to reach the metal frame. Because the sensor housing cannot be attached to the metal frame directly. It would be interesting to look at the SR module and look for ways of sensor heat to escape, like wires.


EDIT:
As for body size. An increased air volume doesn't help. Air is a good heat insulator and its volume wouldn't affect the equilibrium temperature reached after, e.g., half an hour of video recording. Which, according to EXIF, is ~15C above ambient temperature (in the shadow) which isn't bad, actually ...

Shooting in the sun, on the other hand... Wasn't there a time when metal bodies were silver?

Last edited by falconeye; 08-29-2009 at 04:49 AM.
08-29-2009, 05:13 AM   #363
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Very true and even my older 3 chip Betacams were a platinum colour. The wires idea makes some sense. If it were possible to radiate heat off the back of the chip with a series of wires (like the radiators they use on CPU chips). Now to figure out how to "wick" that heat away to the outside of the body. Maybe through the strap lugs?
08-29-2009, 05:49 AM   #364
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
The wires idea makes some sense. If it were possible to radiate heat off the back of the chip with a series of wires (like the radiators they use on CPU chips). Now to figure out how to "wick" that heat away to the outside of the body.
Well, wires would transport heat from the sensor to the metal frame. The metal frame and body is effective (large) enough to then radiate heat away.

There are such wires which carry the sensor signals and electric currency. I am just hoping that there are excess wires to transport heat only. They could be soldiered between SR frame and excess pins from the sensor board.

Because the sensor is open on one side (guess why ) it cannot be cooled in a traditional way of attaching a cooling plate.

But we are speculating here and I am confident that the problem will have been resolved soon.

08-29-2009, 08:46 AM   #365
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By the way. Two things of note:
The fellow I spoke with on the phone yesterday did tell me that firmware update 1.01 would fix the problem. I told him, no it did not and he then said to said it to the ''new'' repair facility in AZ.
Apparently, (and I heard this on another forum), Pentax laid off the techs in CO. and have a new repair facility. I don't know if any of this is relevant or not. The fellow seemed pretty confident they would have it fixed. He said it is taking two to three weeks for them to get to the cameras that come in. I will call up again Monday before sending it back and ask more detailed questions having now read this thread.

As for showing up on prints, that I do not know know, but what I do know is that in many of my pictures that are 50% crops or so, even then that green line is visible on some. I am not a pixel peeper, but I do crop allot and the res is important to me, which is one reason I love the 14.6mp Pentax.
08-29-2009, 08:58 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
cbaytan, completely uncalled for comment that offers nothing to the discussion. Choose your words more carefully unless you want me watching you more carefully. You know full well that a few members here were testers and well qualified ones at that. Heck I 've read books that have been edited and proof read 6 times before publishing and still have spelling mistakes.

So is this a pixel peeping issue? If you don't use LV or video and just shoot stills. Even if the green line is there in a 100% crop, do you actually see it in a normal image? Has anyone taken a photo and enlarged it to 16x20 or so in a print? Does it appear at all. I'm betting it doesn't.

Sure I don't want it either but I've enlarged images with dead pixels that didn't show up in the print.

Is this too much ado about a minor nothing?
Hey hey. you can't talk to me like that instead of sending a pm about the issue, especially after I am accused being unfriendly and advised to get the out of the discussion. If you mean my last post, the words I used are not mine you can check. Now watch me more carefully.

Now the contribution of the issue, my answer is yes it will show up on prints for sure. Anyone can try and see.

There are three interesting cooling solutions from medium format backs, first two uses active cooling process are not not applicable because no air current inside K7 and they use energy, like a peltier
Sinarback 54M Image Quality

and a cooling fan:
Leaf Aptus 17- Helix Camera & Video

My hypothetical very genius solution would be a simple heat sink at the back of the sensor made out of very lightweight metal they can find loosely attached or not attached at all to the metal body, but that would effect the Shake Reduction I guess. So God help the Samsung/Pentax engineers.
08-29-2009, 10:09 AM   #367
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Another report!

QuoteOriginally posted by sodnik Quote
In Sweden, after four weeks of waiting and corresponding with Pentax, we've been told to send our cameras in for service. It's no fw-fix available, they were talking about some adjustments on the camera itself and if that didn't help, they will send us a new camera. It feels like they really don't have any solution for a fix, besides give us a new camera. I'll wait and see, my K7 has been in their hands for a week now.
Hello. My first post here in PF. Although i have been lurking around for quite a while

I know Sodnik from a Swedish Forum. Me and him were likely the first few in Sweden to recieve the K-7. Though both of us knew about the GLS problem already, kinda frutstrating to wait for the camera, just to get it, enjoy it and then send it back.

However, both Sodnik and me reported to the Swedish company that brings Pentax gear to Sweden. They told us to wait, and just two weeks ago they told us to send the camera in for repair. I to called them up and the words i got were the same as Sodnik got. That Pentax has come upp with an solution based on manualy tweaking the problem fom inside and if that doesnt work we would expect to get a new camera. However they told me that this would take 1-2 days, and a new camera would take a couple of weeks.

I have only one concern about this. If the manual tweak works, how will it affect IQ?

I am new to Pentax jumping from Canon DSLR directly to K-7 along with a DA*50-135. After jumping to Pentax i noticed my Mothers old camera (Chinon) with a 50 1,7. That camera used to take pictures of me in dipers and now im using that lens on my K-7

Another thing about GLS. Sodnik had three really bad lines across the middle that were appearant on the back LCD.

I had a very very faint one far to the left that were barely noticable on the computer. Though it was easy to get it with normal still photo (no LV or film) on a normal 20C summer day.

Sorry for the long post, but it's my first post so.....

All the best, to everyone here making this a very good Forum / Mikael

Last edited by the swede; 08-30-2009 at 12:26 AM. Reason: bad spelling.....
08-29-2009, 11:53 AM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgredline Quote
By the way. Two things of note:
The fellow I spoke with on the phone yesterday did tell me that firmware update 1.01 would fix the problem. I told him, no it did not and he then said to said it to the ''new'' repair facility in AZ.
Apparently, (and I heard this on another forum), Pentax laid off the techs in CO. and have a new repair facility. I don't know if any of this is relevant or not. The fellow seemed pretty confident they would have it fixed. He said it is taking two to three weeks for them to get to the cameras that come in. I will call up again Monday before sending it back and ask more detailed questions having now read this thread.

As for showing up on prints, that I do not know know, but what I do know is that in many of my pictures that are 50% crops or so, even then that green line is visible on some. I am not a pixel peeper, but I do crop allot and the res is important to me, which is one reason I love the 14.6mp Pentax.
The line is not visible on 1600x1063 size images and I only see it on the full 4672 x 3104 jpeg.

1600px :
my photos :: 1M black car 1600 picture by jogiba - Photobucket

4672 x 3104 :
Flickr Photo Download: 500mm F6.3 1/125 sec 400iso


Last edited by jogiba; 08-29-2009 at 12:16 PM.
08-29-2009, 08:29 PM   #369
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Problem solved:

08-30-2009, 12:31 AM   #370
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Not wishing to rub salt in it, but I must have taken upwards of 2000 images now with my K7 (I was one of the first in the UK to get it), and none of them have this green line issue
08-30-2009, 07:03 AM   #371
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The Canon 5D MKII cost twice as much as the K-7 .


08-30-2009, 09:41 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The Canon 5D MKII cost twice as much as the K-7 .


and what is your point? use your words...that is how to make yourself understood. Some screen capture taken from the manual of another brand camera is in no way germane to the conversation.
08-30-2009, 09:54 AM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by brecklundin Quote
and what is your point? use your words...that is how to make yourself understood. Some screen capture taken from the manual of another brand camera is in no way germane to the conversation.
I think his point is the high-end and highly praised Canon 5D is also vulnerable to high temperature and degradation of Image Quality from Video and Live View usage.

It doesn't make any difference to the need for Pentax to resolve the "Green Line" issue.

It does make a difference with the wider issue of the "Overheat indicator" appearing after Video/Live View use, where the manual recommends terminating Video/Liveview use when it appears. Its worth knowing that is not a specific K-7 weakness

Last edited by kittykat46; 08-30-2009 at 10:04 AM.
08-30-2009, 04:12 PM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
I think his point is the high-end and highly praised Canon 5D is also vulnerable to high temperature and degradation of Image Quality from Video and Live View usage.

It doesn't make any difference to the need for Pentax to resolve the "Green Line" issue.

It does make a difference with the wider issue of the "Overheat indicator" appearing after Video/Live View use, where the manual recommends terminating Video/Liveview use when it appears. Its worth knowing that is not a specific K-7 weakness
Overheating and sensor effects were known long before video-capable DSLR's went into production. That it showed in a Pentax model is no different than what has occurred (or is controlled for ) with other brands.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/35557-k20d-vs-cano...tml#post329610
08-30-2009, 09:06 PM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
I think his point is the high-end and highly praised Canon 5D is also vulnerable to high temperature and degradation of Image Quality from Video and Live View usage.

It doesn't make any difference to the need for Pentax to resolve the "Green Line" issue.

It does make a difference with the wider issue of the "Overheat indicator" appearing after Video/Live View use, where the manual recommends terminating Video/Liveview use when it appears. Its worth knowing that is not a specific K-7 weakness
I do not care what other brands have as their issues...I did not buy another brand. FYI as a rule, pretty much all DSLR's have about the same upper bound, and until the K7 the same lower bound, operating temp range.

Additionally another reason it really does not matter what other camera lines have is none manifest issues in the fashion that the K7 does. It is a flaw in the design even if it affects a small number of bodies, that still is no justification for the issue to exists. And using other brands is even less justification. Problems other brands have or do not have are simply not relevant to Pentax. The K7 is a WONDERFUL camera but does have a flaw that needs to be addressed.

And as a reference I used LV in my 40D for HOURS w/o ever hitting a limitation due to overheating...but it still makes sense that as a sensor heats up there can be a degradation in IQ...

Obviously Pentax is indeed working to find a solution. I am just happy I decided to wait until every copy off the production line is free of the issue. To be blunt for $1200 (+/-) there is zero justification for such a flaw. So, I will wait and happily enjoy my K20D until "the fix is in"....
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