[Samsungian]

B&H sells these for $2699, with free delivery. Half the time they are in stock half the time they are not. Kinda proves to me hundreds & hundreds of people are willing to pay 2x the money for Full Frame & HD ect over aps-c crop camera, irregardless of brand.

A couple weeks ago BestBuy website had 5D MarkII for $2,249 plus your local fees. That deal last 48 hours.

Up thru the 18th July 2009 a 5D MarkII is buyable for military retired & active duty for $2166.65 delivered.

WHY Not Look harder & maybe you'll find an even more ridiculous 5D Mark II price to use as "evidence" as to how incredible a deal the K-7 is at $1300.



$3,900 5D Mark II

Absolutely, but with reservations. First, you're comparing a $1300 (MSRP) camera with a $3900 camera (amazon price).

[jstevewhite]

WHY Not Look harder & maybe you'll find an even more ridiculous 5D Mark II price to use as "evidence" as to how incredible a deal the K-7 is at $1300.



$3,900 5D Mark II

Sorry. I have bought a considerable amount of my Pentax gear from Amazon and frequently found the lowest price there outside of the "brooklyn scams". I didn't realize it was different for the 5DmkII, and since I'm not actually buying one, I didn't spend time comparison shopping. My bad - I wasn't SHOPPING for the highest price, I just hit amazon, which is usually my first stop, and often my last. The point remains, even at $2500 for the 5DmkII.

And I wasn't specifically defending the K-7; I'm sitting pat with my K20D, I just didn't think it would be fair to use the current K20D price ($600 give or take) in the same equation.

[jstevewhite]

Amazon is crazy high on the 5DII price. Everybody else is selling it for $2700.

Yeah, sorry. I didn't know they were stupid on their Canon prices. Please re-consider my comments with "2x" instead of "3x"

Cropping down to a lower res might be valid if you're interested in per-pixel performance, but the real test (i.e. closest to how most photographers actually shoot) is by using the full resolution of both cameras. Example of real life application: say I'm taking a portrait with APS-C (1.5x), 85mm lens. To take the same portrait with FF and the same lens I'd get closer to fill the frame. So in real life scenarios you don't force both cameras to take shots from the same distance and crop down the FF to the level of APS-C. The only time per-pixel noise comes into play is if you're focal length and distance limited, i.e. you're already using your maximum focal length and can't get any closer, when chances are you'd have to crop with even an APS-C sensor let alone a FF.

Absolutely. But it's not linear, it's a min-max. Or at least, so C and N told us when they sold us the FF - "Egon, I thought you said high pixel density was bad!" - "Right, but not if it's OUR 22mpixels!" . Regardless my attempt at humor, I agree with your statement here.

Really? That's nuts. I don't consider ISO 12800 usable on any camera to date.

To me, usability is directly related to the final output target. For instance, a full frame shot at 3200 on my K20D prints out at 4x6 and looks *incredible* with no particular adjustment. I can go to full frame on 8x10 with a little NR, and it's close. I can print a borderless 8x10 if I convert to B&W, and it looks very nice (although not noiseless by any means). I think the 12800 on the C & N FF should print out to 4x6 very nicely, maybe 5x7, but the noise structure doesn't look as good as the Pentax in B&W @ 8x10, IMO.

Of course, DOF is constant per magnification, focal length, and aperture, independent of sensor size.

Right, but that's not how photographers actually shoot.

Right - unless they're shooting macro (which is why that statement is near and dear to my heart - I shoot a lot of macro work). In every other instance - nearly all - you're absolutely right. I think there is zero difference in Macro work, as it's all about absolute magnification, not sensor size. 1:1 is 1:1, no matter what you're using. Well, I guess you could get MORE stuff on a FF at 1:1, if your subject is bigger than an APS/C sensor!

Absolutely. Too much hyperbole out there about FF being the magic tonic to take your photography to the next level.

Sounds like we managed to agree without religious war ensuing. Amazing!

[Paul MaudDib]

If you really need the reach I'd much rather opt for the D300. In fact, I got the 50D because my 1Ds2, good as it is, requires reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally long glass for what I want to do. Far cheaper to get a $1k body for birding than a $5-10k lens!

As to OP's point, there's a time and place for a Pentax system, just like there is for a "CaNikon" one, or a point and shoot, or a 4x5... you just have to pick the tool that fits your needs. No one system is unequivocally "better" than another.

Why do people do this? They call them "crop-bodies" for a reason. A crop sensor is a crop taken out of the middle of a full-frame sensor's image. You would get the same thing by taking your 1Ds2 and cropping what you want out of the middle.

edit: right?

[pcarfan]

Why do people do this? They call them "crop-bodies" for a reason. A crop sensor is a crop taken out of the middle of a full-frame sensor's image. You would get the same thing by taking your 1Ds2 and cropping what you want out of the middle.

edit: right?

I think you would run out of megapixels very soon. The 16. 7 megapixel sensor when cropped will be pretty darn small...I know the D700 (~12MP) becomes a 5.1 MP cropped image. So, unless you get those 30+ MP FF camera's, and want prints larger than 5X7, then you need two cameras.

[Paul MaudDib]

So do the crop sensors have more sites per unit area than the full-frame? It would seem like if the sensors are the same density on the chip, then you would be able to get the same thing back out, even if you had to use RAW or something?

[Yohan Pamudji]

So do the crop sensors have more sites per unit area than the full-frame? It would seem like if the sensors are the same density on the chip, then you would be able to get the same thing back out, even if you had to use RAW or something?

Current crop sensors have more pixels/sensels per unit of area than current FF. The comparison gets more dicey when comparing older crop sensors with current FF. Always keep an eye on pixel pitch/size.

[pingflood]

Why do people do this? They call them "crop-bodies" for a reason. A crop sensor is a crop taken out of the middle of a full-frame sensor's image. You would get the same thing by taking your 1Ds2 and cropping what you want out of the middle.

edit: right?

Well, I didn't go spend $1k on a second body for no good reason.

The 50D has 15.1MP on its smaller sensor. In order for me to get the same size cropped image out of my 1Ds2 it would have to have ~39MP. Since it's only got 16.6, my "crop sensor equivalent" would be 16.6/1.6^2=6.5MP. So by using the 50D I am putting more than twice the amount of pixels on the subject, which is a huge benefit for what I shoot.

[kenyee]

So do the crop sensors have more sites per unit area than the full-frame? It would seem like if the sensors are the same density on the chip, then you would be able to get the same thing back out, even if you had to use RAW or something?

Yes. And yes. The thing is, with most FF sensors, the actual pixel sensor size is much bigger than the equivalent pixel sensor on APS-C. That's where the low-light and dynamic range equivalent comes from.
And people say APS-C gives you a free 1.5x TC because you're essentually cropping, but at the same time mapping the optical image to the same number of pixels, so it really behaves more like a 1.5x TC than a crop if you think of pixels, but if you think in DOF, it does not. Hope that makes sense

[pingflood]

No free lunch in the world of photography, that's for sure. A FF camera of the same vintage will generally make far better use of the same # of pixels, but in decent light a crop sensor camera (where not hindered by noise issues and equipped with good glass) offers an advantage for "longer" shooting.

Best is to have both.

[Samsungian]

I'm not a fan of Amazon. I wonder if you overpaid for your pentax items you got thru Amazon since you didn't price compare with B&H ? The concept that Amazon advertises such insane prices on gear which is fully 50% over suggested list to take advantage of clueless buyers keeps me from shopping with them. Anyways here's the MOST anyone should pay for a 5D MarkII. As I pointed out earlier it is buyable for $534 less if you have a military connection. I suspect by Thanksgiving it'll routinely be $2299, down a solid $400 off launch price. Still I'll likely pass on it unless it drops to $1750 where my 5D was when I bought it instead of K20D when it was still at $1299.


Canon | EOS 5D Mark II Digital Camera (Camera Body) | 2764B003


Even Canon USA lists the suggested retail price on 5D Mark II : "$2,699"


http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662


I wonder why Amazon Scam-a-zon needs to sell theirs for $1,300 over suggested list ???

Sorry. I have bought a considerable amount of my Pentax gear from Amazon and frequently found the lowest price there outside of the "brooklyn scams". I didn't realize it was different for the 5DmkII, and since I'm not actually buying one, I didn't spend time comparison shopping. My bad - I wasn't SHOPPING for the highest price, I just hit amazon, which is usually my first stop, and often my last. The point remains, even at $2500 for the 5DmkII.

And I wasn't specifically defending the K-7; I'm sitting pat with my K20D, I just didn't think it would be fair to use the current K20D price ($600 give or take) in the same equation.

[Rondec]

It is silly to rip Amazon. They usually have decent prices on most things, but certainly most of us compare prices before we decide. They have great return policies if something isn't quite what is expected. Every so often their prices are totally out of line, but on K mount gear, they tend to be fairly close to the prices on other sites. B and H is good, but often is more. I have no idea about Canon gear and I'm not planning to start buying it any time soon.

[jstevewhite]

I'm not a fan of Amazon. I wonder if you overpaid for your pentax items you got thru Amazon since you didn't price compare with B&H ?

I did. And do. And Amazon usually costs less. I said I didn't comparison shop on the 5Dmk2 because I'm *not really buying one.* The K20D is $629 from Amazon right now, and $629 from B&H, but I get overnight from Amazon for $4. The Sigma 50-500 "Bigma" is $1060 from either one, but again, I get $4.00 overnight from Amazon. And if I want to return it, I go to my account and click "Return this item" - it prints me an RMA right there.

The concept that Amazon advertises such insane prices on gear which is fully 50% over suggested list to take advantage of clueless buyers keeps me from shopping with them.

LOL. This is an amusing bit of FUD. The $3899 price on Amazon isn't sold by Amazon, but by a partner that can charge what they will (Amazon doesn't set your prices for you if you sell through them, in other words). That's from Pavilion Electronics.

I'm an Amazon Prime member, and I can tell you that if you choose the Prime offer, and it's more than what someone else offers, a red line of text appears on the item page that tells you it's not the lowest price.

Amazon's return policies are stunningly cool, as well, and with my Prime membership I get free 2-day shipping and $3.99 overnight shipping.

Anyways here's the MOST anyone should pay for a 5D MarkII. As I pointed out earlier it is buyable for $534 less if you have a military connection. I suspect by Thanksgiving it'll routinely be $2299, down a solid $400 off launch price. Still I'll likely pass on it unless it drops to $1750 where my 5D was when I bought it instead of K20D when it was still at $1299.


Canon | EOS 5D Mark II Digital Camera (Camera Body) | 2764B003


Even Canon USA lists the suggested retail price on 5D Mark II : "$2,699"


Canon EOS 5D Mark II Digital SLR Camera


I wonder why Amazon Scam-a-zon needs to sell theirs for $1,300 over suggested list ???

Like I said, "Amazon" isn't selling it at that price, Pavilion Electronics is. You already made the relevant point, that I had a crazy price, and I acknowledged it. I'm not sure why we're repeating that process... But I had a crazy price. Sorry. My Bad. That does't make Amazon The Evil Empire, though.

[digitaldevo]

All I can add is that I came from being a die hard Canon shooter and L Glass to Pentax back with the K10D. Leaps and bounds above the Canon junk! Most Canon shooters will NOT give you the real info in there! Canon has, and has been having, non-stop QC issues that have been progressively getting worse and worse! I got so sick and tired of the BS it is what drove me to buying Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina lenses instead of all L glass, eventually drove me right out of Cannon products completely and into Pentax. Many of my close buds shoot Canon still, those that haven't jumped ship to either Pentax or Nikon already, and many of those currently shooting are ready to jump ship now after the 1Ds & 1D MkIII list of fiascoes and faults and constant issues. All the issues even with the 40/50D cameras as well, focusing issues, shutter malfunctions, etc.

My 20D hand banding issues(like everyone else, mess up with camera), promised by Canon a new firmware to fix the problem, never came/happened! Had to send Battery Grips back due to causing shorts, fixed that, out BG for 6wks+. Faulty flash mechanisms on the 20Ds, and the list can go on.

While Pentax has some quirks here and there to learn/get used to, I have had NOT a single issue with any more my Pentax gear to date! Even far better IQ then my Canons + L glass ever put out!

Don;t get mne wrong, I loved my Canon rigs, just got tired of all the BS with Canon not giving two craps about its clients! And instead of fixing bugs, issues, etc. they just would release another model in the same line fixing those issues(supposedly) and expect you to have to purchase an entirely new body!!! Add a few extra useless features on there to make it look better, etc. Total BS! L glass with tons of AF issues, IS units breaking left and right on 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM L and 100-400mm f/4 IS L and 300mm f/4 IS USM L lenses, internal components falling apart and into the lens barrel on an entire batch of 100-400mm IS USM L lenses, faulty shutters on Rebels, 40Ds, etc. Giving Spot Metering that is NOT even true spot metering just something they are calling spot, I mean, come on, even the entry level from all other Manufacturers tend to offer true Spot Metering as it is an integral part of photography! Now the fiascoes with the Series 1 bodies that have been plagued and junk since day 1!! They need to stop trying to live off their name and actually start producing some great equipment and lenses like they used to years ago!!

Currently the only camera body Canon makes that is worth a poo is the 5D MkII, and even it has its issues, sadly. I almost bought one to have a 2nd system to go with my K10D(soon to be K7) and film cameras. But just couldn't justify being pretty much stuck with paying premium, crazy over priced, fees for Canon's lenses to use on it, not with all the current QC issues especially. So, I ended up snagging a brand new Sigma SD14 for under $400. Far better colors(true colors) over anything out there currently(Canon, Nikon, even Pentax, only Fuji with their SuperCCD comes close), uprezed files easily exceed the quality of the original Canon 5D, so god to go there, DR is insane to say the least, reminds me of a MF digital, almost, seriously! The depth is just simply amazing. And I cann pop out the Ir Cut pass filter manually and now I have a full time IR & IR+VIS capable camera as well!

K10D does well enough for me for everything I shoot including the occasional action shots. But I also came from shooting sports/action with older full manual SLRs + MF lenses and still got the shots, so I don;t have to rely on speed of the camera as many newer shooters do. Now getting older and slower though, I do like that the K7 has a nice faster FPS, to me 5FPS is perfect for whatever one could ever need. .

But, if you have to choose a different system over Pentax, look into Nikon, NOT Canon! Biggest issue with Nikon is lack of VR on most lenses. . Sigma is however slowly adding OS to more and more lenses as well as almost all lenses are now coming with HSM as well. They even just recently released a 24-70mm f/2.8-4 HSM OS lens! If they just add OS to the 70-200mm f/2.8 or the 100-300mm f/4 or the 120-300mm f/2.8 as those lenses rock big time!!!!! The 120-300mm and its little brother 100-300mm even work great with a 1.4x TC on them!!! 120-300mm even works well with a 2x TC on it, and will produce acceptable images with a stacked 1.4x TC + 2x TC on it! The 100-300mm will do acceptable images with a 2x but dies with them stacked, sadly. What rocks though is the Sigmonster 300-800mm f/5.6, lol. *DROOL*

I saw you mention the Canon EF 300mm f/4 IS USM L, that is one excellent lens, big time! AF/IS is a bit loud though! But IQ is amazing! Add on extension tubes and it even worked well for long distance macros too! I loved mine wen I had it. But the 100-30mm and 120-300mm both had about the same IQ once the images were in print. Same goes for the 120-300mm(even with a TC) produces about same print quality as the EF 400mm f/5.6 L lens does. The 100-300mm f/4 Sigma will produce about same quality in print as the 400mm EF L, but not with the TC attached it will not, a tad bit less, but only noticeable at larger sizes, 16x20" and up.

[brecklundin]

digitaldevo:

I pretty much agree with everything you posted. Not sure I would go to the extreme on the reasons why I moved over to the K20D and soon enough a K7, but basically I feel the same way. That is to say, I never felt a WOW kinda thing with my 40D no matter what lens was on it...and I know it's about the dolt behind the gear more than the gear, yet there is a point where the gear as it is, just 'feels' like something is missing or ??? I am not sure.

One this I will point out about Sigma that bothered me even when I was using the Canon gear, they charge the same price for a Pentax mount version of a lens with OS as they do for a camera that actually uses the OS. I guess one could say that they leave all the guts the same to save on the production costs, but I have to wonder if on a pentax run, they do leave out the OS motors and boards/chips. Of course there is the overhead of developing the firmware for the lens to talk to the Pentax correctly, but they have to do that for every mount they support anyway.

So, I guess I am saying I do not want to see them keep adding OS and 30% to the cost of a lens across the board. Pretty much I see only a select few Sigma lenses I will be adding to my Pentax lenses and none of them have OS. Don't want to pay for it, one of the pro's in the Pentax column was the very fact I could get an f2.8 70-200mm and have stabilization without having to spend $1600...instead a bit over $700 for the newest version from the right vendor...huge difference.

My concern for the new HoyaTax prices on lenses happens to center around the sense they are pricing sealed lenses as if they had built-in stabilization. I point to the new prices for the 60-250...there are a few places to find it under $900 still but those are drying up. Weather sealing is also a reason I wanted to move to Pentax but I was not expecting a HoyaTax to start blocking my way via pricing sealed lenses near enough to be essentially the same as stabilized lens prices, and I am meaning Sigma's line here not the insane L prices. Even worse is compared to Sigma's 4yr USA warranty the HoyaTax 1-yr warranty is weak considering the cost these days. What happens in 3-yrs when a seal fails on a sealed lens? You know that will happen, eventually.

Anyway, thanks for voicing most of why I switched for me...I'm quite happy with the new gear and will be set for a long time when the cost of the K7 drops enough to make me feel OK about buying one.

So no company is w/o it's irritants. I just happen to like the shots I get with the K20D better than what I got with the 40D in terms of color and detail.