[pcarfan]

All I can add is that I came from being a die hard Canon shooter and L Glass to Pentax back with the K10D. Leaps and bounds above the Canon junk! Most Canon shooters will NOT give you the real info in there! Canon has, and has been having, non-stop QC issues that have been progressively getting worse and worse! I got so sick and tired of the BS it is what drove me to buying Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina lenses instead of all L glass, eventually drove me right out of Cannon products completely and into Pentax. Many of my close buds shoot Canon still, those that haven't jumped ship to either Pentax or Nikon already, and many of those currently shooting are ready to jump ship now after the 1Ds & 1D MkIII list of fiascoes and faults and constant issues. All the issues even with the 40/50D cameras as well, focusing issues, shutter malfunctions, etc.

My 20D hand banding issues(like everyone else, mess up with camera), promised by Canon a new firmware to fix the problem, never came/happened! Had to send Battery Grips back due to causing shorts, fixed that, out BG for 6wks+. Faulty flash mechanisms on the 20Ds, and the list can go on.

While Pentax has some quirks here and there to learn/get used to, I have had NOT a single issue with any more my Pentax gear to date! Even far better IQ then my Canons + L glass ever put out!

Don;t get mne wrong, I loved my Canon rigs, just got tired of all the BS with Canon not giving two craps about its clients! And instead of fixing bugs, issues, etc. they just would release another model in the same line fixing those issues(supposedly) and expect you to have to purchase an entirely new body!!! Add a few extra useless features on there to make it look better, etc. Total BS! L glass with tons of AF issues, IS units breaking left and right on 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM L and 100-400mm f/4 IS L and 300mm f/4 IS USM L lenses, internal components falling apart and into the lens barrel on an entire batch of 100-400mm IS USM L lenses, faulty shutters on Rebels, 40Ds, etc. Giving Spot Metering that is NOT even true spot metering just something they are calling spot, I mean, come on, even the entry level from all other Manufacturers tend to offer true Spot Metering as it is an integral part of photography! Now the fiascoes with the Series 1 bodies that have been plagued and junk since day 1!! They need to stop trying to live off their name and actually start producing some great equipment and lenses like they used to years ago!!

Currently the only camera body Canon makes that is worth a poo is the 5D MkII, and even it has its issues, sadly. I almost bought one to have a 2nd system to go with my K10D(soon to be K7) and film cameras. But just couldn't justify being pretty much stuck with paying premium, crazy over priced, fees for Canon's lenses to use on it, not with all the current QC issues especially. So, I ended up snagging a brand new Sigma SD14 for under $400. Far better colors(true colors) over anything out there currently(Canon, Nikon, even Pentax, only Fuji with their SuperCCD comes close), uprezed files easily exceed the quality of the original Canon 5D, so god to go there, DR is insane to say the least, reminds me of a MF digital, almost, seriously! The depth is just simply amazing. And I cann pop out the Ir Cut pass filter manually and now I have a full time IR & IR+VIS capable camera as well!

K10D does well enough for me for everything I shoot including the occasional action shots. But I also came from shooting sports/action with older full manual SLRs + MF lenses and still got the shots, so I don;t have to rely on speed of the camera as many newer shooters do. Now getting older and slower though, I do like that the K7 has a nice faster FPS, to me 5FPS is perfect for whatever one could ever need. .

But, if you have to choose a different system over Pentax, look into Nikon, NOT Canon! Biggest issue with Nikon is lack of VR on most lenses. . Sigma is however slowly adding OS to more and more lenses as well as almost all lenses are now coming with HSM as well. They even just recently released a 24-70mm f/2.8-4 HSM OS lens! If they just add OS to the 70-200mm f/2.8 or the 100-300mm f/4 or the 120-300mm f/2.8 as those lenses rock big time!!!!! The 120-300mm and its little brother 100-300mm even work great with a 1.4x TC on them!!! 120-300mm even works well with a 2x TC on it, and will produce acceptable images with a stacked 1.4x TC + 2x TC on it! The 100-300mm will do acceptable images with a 2x but dies with them stacked, sadly. What rocks though is the Sigmonster 300-800mm f/5.6, lol. *DROOL*

I saw you mention the Canon EF 300mm f/4 IS USM L, that is one excellent lens, big time! AF/IS is a bit loud though! But IQ is amazing! Add on extension tubes and it even worked well for long distance macros too! I loved mine wen I had it. But the 100-30mm and 120-300mm both had about the same IQ once the images were in print. Same goes for the 120-300mm(even with a TC) produces about same print quality as the EF 400mm f/5.6 L lens does. The 100-300mm f/4 Sigma will produce about same quality in print as the 400mm EF L, but not with the TC attached it will not, a tad bit less, but only noticeable at larger sizes, 16x20" and up.

Your post has been extremely helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out. I appreciate it very much.

[Paul MaudDib]

Obviously "good" and "better" are subjective things, so I can't really take TOO much exception with what you say here. However, I will say that I would *hope like blue blazes* that the D700 would produce a better image, all things being equal, since it's nearly twice the price of the K-7, let alone the K20D's price now. Even so, is the image twice as good?

If you stay under ISO 1600, I don't think the Nikon images are *any* better, at least not in the "real world" of pixel-peeper.com. I know, I know, these aren't controlled laboratory tests, but I don't shoot in a laboratory, either. After looking at literally HUNDREDS of images side by side, I just don't see any significant difference that you can point to and say "Look, that's a full frame sensor/Nikon/Canon/etc". I've done the blind tests - resize everything to 12 MP and display onscreen with "Is this from a full frame" or "is this Nikon/Canon/Pentax"? I haven't found anyone yet who could successfully tell the difference. I'm thinking about putting such a poll online and inviting everyone to take it. Look at a picture, pick "full frame" or "aps/c"; then "pick manufacturer" in another cycle. I'm betting the results will be random.

I know most people think they can tell the difference. People always think they can tell the differenc. Several studies, however, show us that they usually can't.

Do it. I would love to see a blind test. I don't think it could quite be an ABX test but it would still be interesting!

[nostatic]

If you get a chance, handle a Canon 5Dmk2, D700 and a900. Then pick up a K7 or K20d. I think you'll find that despite the lower price tag the Pentax body will feel better built. Especially the K7 - the thing is a tank. The Canon otoh has a flimsy card door that flexes every time you pick up the camera. At least the one I checked out did.

The bottom line is that there is no "best" system - they all have strengths and weaknesses. But after spending time earlier this week looking at various Canikon/Sony offerings I didn't see anything like the ltd primes, nor can you get a solid, weatherproof camera for +/- $1K.

Can Canikon outperform Pentax in certain regards? Absolutely. If you absolutely have to have iso12800 or 7fps, then walk away from the Pentax. I will however put the K20d raw file up against any other APS-C raw file out there. Period. Put a ltd prime on the body or the 50-135*, shoot at iso1600 or less and you won't be sad about iq.

[Yohan Pamudji]

digitaldevo,

I don't disagree with you in principle--Canon have a lot of 'splaining to do about their recent debacles--but I think you're a bit over the top.

You've listed a lot of problems with Canon, but only some of them are real and due to design issues. 1DIII focusing issues--check. 20D grip shorting out--check. But many of the issues you listed aren't as widespread as you make them sound and are down to individual copies breaking down. Stuff breaks, and when you sell as much stuff as Canon more stuff breaks than manufacturers that sell less. It happens. I'm not happy with Canon's QC either, but it's not all doom and gloom and the-sky-is-falling like you make it sound. I've had my fair share of items needing repair straight out of the box, but the majority of stuff I've had has been solid from day 1. To be fair though, if I'd had as much trouble as you I might've switched too.

I agree that there's not a whole lot of inspiring camera bodies in Canon's lineup right now, which is why I'm still shooting a 5D + 40D. I, too, hate how they artificially segment their products from one another (stingy with the weather sealing and AF) and how their product lineup doesn't make much sense right now (5DII AF is worse than 50D that costs less than 1/2 the price, for instance).

I wouldn't mind trying Nikon, but Nikon don't have the lenses I want nor do they meet the AF requirement I have for my next camera, i.e. cross-type AF points spread through the whole frame instead of clustered in the middle. Plus Nikon aren't interested in in swappable focusing screens, and I've come to really depend on the Ee-S focusing screen on my 5D that makes manually focusing large aperture primes much more doable.

Canon overpriced? Try pricing an equivalent Nikon system (if the lenses match up at all) and see how your wallet likes that.

And in case you think the QC grass is greener on the other side, there are disgruntled Nikonians who have switched to Canon due to poor repair experiences there too. Unfortunately these days you pick your poison and hope for the best.

While Pentax has some quirks here and there to learn/get used to, I have had NOT a single issue with any more my Pentax gear to date! Even far better IQ then my Canons + L glass ever put out!

You've gotten some really duff L lenses then. I can't imagine getting significantly better quality than what I'm getting from my 35L, 85L, and 135L. Some L lenses aren't the greatest across the entire range, for instance the 24-70L and 70-200L IS, both of which I own. "L" isn't a guarantee of absolute image quality. You have to know what you're getting into with each lens. It's the same with every manufacturer. "Limited" isn't a guarantee of image quality with Pentax either, although some might think so just based on the name and reputation.

And keep hoping lady luck is with you and your Pentax gear. Chances are some day you'll need a Pentax item repaired, so don't let your love affair with Pentax end that day.

[GoldenWreckedAngle]

... I will however put the K20d raw file up against any other APS-C raw file out there. Period. Put a ltd prime on the body or the 50-135*, shoot at iso1600 or less and you won't be sad about iq.

Even the K10D?

[kenyee]

lenses. . Sigma is however slowly adding OS to more and more lenses as well as almost all lenses are now coming with HSM as well. They even just recently released a 24-70mm f/2.8-4 HSM OS lens!

Where's the announcement for the 24-70/2.8 HSM OS?
I couldn't find anything about it on google...

[brecklundin]

Where's the announcement for the 24-70/2.8 HSM OS?
I couldn't find anything about it on google...

I know they announced an HSM version of the 24-70 in the late summer/early fall of 2008 but am not aware of an OS version.

Sigma - Lenses

They have announced an OS version of the 18-50mm in early 2009 though. But it is a crop body only lens.

Sigma - Lenses
Sigma Lens: Zooms - Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8-4.5 DC OS HSM - SLRgear.com!

And of course here is the Sigma master List Page...once an lens is announce it is on that page:

Sigma - Lenses

Of course some lenses have been shown as 'new' for a very, very long time...hehehehe...maybe they figure if all the mounts are not yet in production, they can still be "new"...

[AntiBad]

Yikes where to begin jumping into this bowl of puddin....
well here goes, have you used the d700, the thing is huge, so if you're looking for compact, you're not looking at full 35mm (which might not be a magic photo bullet, but damn my 5D took nice pics). next..uhh... oh yeah, if I didn't care about size and had lots of money, I'd pick canon... 24mm t/s, 35mm 1.4 85mm 1.2, 135L, .... Course I don't shoot long lenses, but if I did, I'd agree with... whoever said it... check out oly... they got them thur crazy f 2.0 zooms! and the 90-250 2.8... it's only $5000 so buy 2.
I forgot everything else I was gonna say, but pentax has got (or it should) the market on compact with the k7 and limiteds.
and for the amazon bh thingy, you gotta shop around, sometime or another amazon will have the best price for something, right?
are rigtht yall, have fun and good night.

[lol101]

But, my point is, irrelevant of the price, do they offer SR/IS/VR/OS or what ever it is called in each system ?

So, yes the nikon/canon offers better iso performance, but the lack of in body SR will force me to boost the iso to get a suitable shutter speed and thus nullify the better iso performance. So, at the end we are left with no advantage. The 2-3 stops advantage in iso is nullified by the 2-3 stop SR performance.

Inversely, you could say that the SR advantage is nullified by having better ISO performances as soon as something moves in your picture... it's all dependant on what you're shooting.

If you only shoot static subjects in low light (architecture, static portarits...), SR or good high ISO can be equivalent, if something moves (street pictures, reportage...), SR is useless and good high ISO mandatory but SR and good high ISO are certainly not equivalent.

[egordon99]

Where's the announcement for the 24-70/2.8 HSM OS?
I couldn't find anything about it on google...

Sigma unveils 18-50mm f2.8-4.5 DC OS HSM lens: Digital Photography Review

1)It's an 18-50mm
2)It is f/2.8-4.5
3)Sigma had a chance to KILL Canikon with an "affordable" stablized 18-50 lens, but opted for something else

Sigma did come out with a new 24-70 f/2.8 with HSM which compares VERY nicely to the Canon 24-70L. I just picked up the Canon 24-70L and it's a very nice lens.

[egordon99]

Canon's L glass is very good. Canon's non-L USM primes are very good. But Pentax Limiteds and DA*s are all really good too. Nikon has great lenses as well

It's a GREAT time to be a photographer/gear nut/etc...You can pretty much get great images out of ANY system.

My quick thoughts on going from Pentax to Canon -
-Miss the in body stabilization, especially for my primes (FA 50/1.4 and 35/2)
-K10D/battery grip had wonderful ergonomics.
-DA* 50-135 was a GREAT lens. Available in an EF mount, but in Tokina form and isn't stabilized.

I switched mainly due to the low-light autofocus issues, and was hoping the 40D did better at high ISO than the K10D. But overall, the image quality of my K10D was NOT lacking, and actually did remarkably well at lower ISOs (especially 100)

Here is what I own now, and what I could use if I was shooting Pentax (in keeping with the theme of the thread...) My two bodies are the 40D and Xsi, so here we go with the lenses -

Canon 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM----->Pentax 17-70 f/4
Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8 ---->Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, not quite as wide, and no USM, but optically great, I had one when I shot Pentax

Sigma 30mm f/1.4---->Sigma 30mm f/1.4
Sigma 10-20 f/3.5-5.6--->Sigma 10-20mm f/3.5-5.6 (also owned this with Pentax!)
Canon 70-200mm f/4 IS ---->Similar to the DA* 50-135, but not as fast, Canon has better USM motor, goes longer, but starts longer as well. Someone bring out a 50-200mm f/4!
-Canon 100-400L f/4.5-6.6 IS USM---->Either the Sigma 120-400 or 150-500 that came out recently
Canon 85mm f/1.8 ----->Pentax 77mm f/1.8 Limited

So looks like I could put together a similar system, haven't bothered looking at the costs, but they'd be all in the ballpark, with the exception of the 70-200/50-135 and 24-70/28-70 where the Canons are alot more expensive than the "Pentax Equivalents"

If I had all the money in the world, I'd shoot a Nikon D3 with their 14-24/24-70/70-200 (3 bodies please!), and than a Canon 1Ds MKIII with a bunch of L primes (24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 135/2, 200/2, 500/4, 600/4, 800/5.6)

[pingflood]

egordon: nice lens collection.

Me, I'd want a 1DIII with 400/5.6 and 800/5.6 and a 1DsIII with 24-105, 85/1.8 and Sigma 50/1.4. Maybe an ultrawide too.

Ah yes, one can dream..

[pcarfan]

After weeks of contemplation, IMO the system that is ideal with the best iso performance being the primary criteria ( to shoot at iso 3200 with available light indoors) with minimal other sacrifices is the following.

Canon 5D MKii

Canon 35mm/f1.4 USM L (For indoor available light shooting).

Canon 17-40 F4 USM L (For wide angle nature)

Canon 24-105 F4 USM L IS (For indoor flash photography)

Canon 300mm L USM IS + 1.4 TC+ cropping the 21MP (Birding)

Nikon makes excellent bodies, but the lenses cannot match. The above system will optimize high iso performance, sacrifice top IQ as compared to a K-7 and a few Pentax primes.

[pentaxmz]

All I can add is that I came from being a die hard Canon shooter and L Glass to Pentax back with the K10D. Leaps and bounds above the Canon junk! Most Canon shooters will NOT give you the real info in there!
**SNIP**

Wow, with all due respect, this entire comment is ripe with fanboyism or fanaticism!

You know if you wish to believe your Pentax equipment is superior to all else, that is your right.... but man, it is bad form to make a claim that nearly all Canon equipment is "junk". Seriously, do you really mean to say that more than 40% of all camera owners are stupid?

The constant putting down of Canon and Nikon in this forum is really kind of ridiculous. It's not just me that has noticed that it seems some Pentax owners have an enormous inferiority complex. Gosh! By all means, talk about how great your camera is! But at least be honest about its failings. And don't put down the other brands with comments that are highly opinionated, exaggerated, or just patently false.

[pingflood]

After weeks of contemplation, IMO the system that is ideal with the best iso performance being the primary criteria ( to shoot at iso 3200 with available light indoors) with minimal other sacrifices is the following.

Canon 5D MKii

Canon 35mm/f1.4 USM L (For indoor available light shooting).

Canon 17-40 F4 USM L (For wide angle nature)

Canon 24-105 F4 USM L IS (For indoor flash photography)

Canon 300mm L USM IS + 1.4 TC+ cropping the 21MP (Birding)

Nikon makes excellent bodies, but the lenses cannot match. The above system will optimize high iso performance, sacrifice top IQ as compared to a K-7 and a few Pentax primes.

I think you're onto something here, though I'd go for the 14L for wide angle, and for birds in flight I'll take my 400/5.6 over the 300 + TC -- I'll give up IS for the insane AF performance and sharpness. Though even 400/420 is a little short for the 5DII IMO...