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07-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #61
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basing from those results, the D90 looks to handle the noise better than the K-7. but I do have some questions or atleast remarks regarding the parameters used in taking those shots.

1. the angle of the shots taken were not identical so much to make a fair comparison. definitely the light coming from the lamp shade could coz adverse effect or contribute to noise. it would had been better if the setup was done exactly identical with each other.

2. lenses used. since Nikon and Pentax don't have similar lenses, it's better to atleast used lenses that are close to that of each other in terms of speed, IQ and colors. whether kit lens comparison or top end lenses with equivalent IQs.

3. WB comparison. obviously there is a difference as to the WB application. WB should had been adjusted to match each others WB.

4. level of NR. I would like to see a sample of both K-7 and D90 with and without NR.

5. EV adjustment. this is quite tricky since the K-7 and D90 are two different systems. so the application of EV may vary inorder to maximize the IQ result. EV adjustments should be done at the same EV level.

6. chroma noise count and blotches. this should be taken into consideration as well.

the difference in system made this comparison a bit tricky as to which is better in real world photography. I would like to see the best possible result of the K7 at 6400 as opposed to the best 6400 result coming from the D90. just to be fair.

07-17-2009, 09:38 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
4. level of NR. I would like to see a sample of both K-7 and D90 with and without NR.
I don't think that this is possible. Even when you turn the NR "off" on a camera, that doesn't mean that there is no NR. Each manufacturer applies a certain amount of NR to the image coming off of the sensor. The NR setting is the additional user application of NR.

So much of NR is the algorithm used. It may be that the NR algorithm in the D90 is slightly better. It also may be the fact that the D90 is a lower resolution camera. We are talking however, about minor differences here that don't show up until 100% crops.

Regarding the different NR algorithms, I posted this in another thread. The first ISO 3200 100% crop is K-7 NR on High, the second is the Adobe Photoshop Elements noise reduction to the RAW image.




Oh, and this is the original full image shown in a reasonable size on screen with NR OFF. The point being here that you REALLY need to crop into these pictures to see the differences.



Choosing a D90 over a K-7 based on 100% crops showing subtle noise differences is silly.

Last edited by Damn Brit; 07-17-2009 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Added IMGWIDE tags
07-17-2009, 09:42 PM   #63
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Please use the IMGWIDE tags when necessary guys. It really does spoil the viewing for a lot of people when you don't use them.
07-17-2009, 10:02 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
Please use the IMGWIDE tags when necessary guys. It really does spoil the viewing for a lot of people when you don't use them.
Thanks Gary. I will remember that for the future.

07-17-2009, 10:06 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Sorry Gary. I haven't used that tag before. Please instruct me.
It's the last tag on the right, looks the same as the IMG tag but it is in B&W and has a border round it.
To get to it from the edit post function, you have to click the 'go advanced' button to see it.
The alternative with all these tags once you know them is to just type them in.
07-17-2009, 10:16 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
It's the last tag on the right, looks the same as the IMG tag but it is in B&W and has a border round it.
OK I feel like a knucklehead now. I see the icon.
07-17-2009, 10:59 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I don't think that this is possible. Even when you turn the NR "off" on a camera, that doesn't mean that there is no NR. Each manufacturer applies a certain amount of NR to the image coming off of the sensor. The NR setting is the additional user application of NR.

So much of NR is the algorithm used. It may be that the NR algorithm in the D90 is slightly better. It also may be the fact that the D90 is a lower resolution camera. We are talking however, about minor differences here that don't show up until 100% crops.

Regarding the different NR algorithms, I posted this in another thread. The first ISO 3200 100% crop is K-7 NR on High, the second is the Adobe Photoshop Elements noise reduction to the RAW image.




Oh, and this is the original full image shown in a reasonable size on screen with NR OFF. The point being here that you REALLY need to crop into these pictures to see the differences.



Choosing a D90 over a K-7 based on 100% crops showing subtle noise differences is silly.
IMO, resolution does play a part or a role when it comes to noises. higher pixels means higher detail and contrast means higher noises. I came up with the basis similar to that of pixel ratios of monitors and tvs. the 2.3 mpixels difference is a lot and could make a huge impact to the level of noise. that is an additional 2 million pixel boxes of detail. and 2 million less for the D90. so I wouldn't be surprised if it got less noise.

so I think it would also be logical to set the pixel ratio around 10 mp versus 10 mp or with the same amount of pixel count as well. but in the event that the D90 is still better, then the reason for that is primarily the sensor and low-pass filter design made for that specific camera.
07-18-2009, 09:58 AM   #68
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follow up

Since I started this mess ---

300 images later with the k7 in real world photography
the k7 may not be the high iso champ but it kicks my d90's but with regards to egronomics ( changing setting like focus point ect ) and it just feels right in my hands. I own the k10 k7 and d90 and they are all staying put. The k7 is the one that I am going to reach for first -- the image quality is awesome when combined with my Limited lenses ( 35mm macro and 70mm )

All this talk about high iso ( which I had to bring up ) is only part of the story, if i look at the whole scene with regards to dslr's my k7 is fantastic.

I think all of us pentaxians have to remember that the canon and nikon folks do not have anything close the limited pentax primes. And for myself that was one reason I came back to pentax ---- LIMITED PRIMES they kick butt. Of course now I need more $$ for more limited primes.

Funny story this week, I was in my local shop which no longer sells pentax. One of the young guys was asking me about my pentax stuff and i mentioned that the limited primes are awesome, he had never heard of them, but the owner of the store had and he said to the young guy "yes they are very great". So next trip I will show him a real lense that is not made of plastic.

kman

07-18-2009, 04:33 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by kmanlaker Quote
Since I started this mess ---

300 images later with the k7 in real world photography
the k7 may not be the high iso champ but it kicks my d90's but with regards to egronomics ( changing setting like focus point ect ) and it just feels right in my hands. I own the k10 k7 and d90 and they are all staying put. The k7 is the one that I am going to reach for first -- the image quality is awesome when combined with my Limited lenses ( 35mm macro and 70mm )

All this talk about high iso ( which I had to bring up ) is only part of the story, if i look at the whole scene with regards to dslr's my k7 is fantastic.

I think all of us pentaxians have to remember that the canon and nikon folks do not have anything close the limited pentax primes. And for myself that was one reason I came back to pentax ---- LIMITED PRIMES they kick butt. Of course now I need more $$ for more limited primes.

Funny story this week, I was in my local shop which no longer sells pentax. One of the young guys was asking me about my pentax stuff and i mentioned that the limited primes are awesome, he had never heard of them, but the owner of the store had and he said to the young guy "yes they are very great". So next trip I will show him a real lense that is not made of plastic.

kman
Well thanks, this is the best thing i have heard about the K-7. I mean in dpreview the K-7 gets knocked by a lot of people in the ISO category and pictures i have seen actually look great, my question is now on image-resource i do see the d90 ISO look cleaner than the K-7 but since you own both would you say the IQ from the K-7 is better than the d90, thanks.
07-18-2009, 05:07 PM   #70
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it shouldn't be a surprise. Dpreview is a Canikon stronghold. it wouldn't be right if they would praise other brands aside from the top two dogs !
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