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07-11-2009, 03:37 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think it is silly to talk about this. The question is not "will the camera take amazing photos that the K20 wouldn't," but rather "will this camera allow me to do things that I couldn't with the K20?" I have a K20 and am very satisfied, at the same time, when chasing around my kids, I am sure the auto focus could be a little better, the auto white balance a little better, etc. This will end up with more keepers for me, not necessarily awesome photos that I will post on the forum, but ones that I will treasure as my kids get older....

At the same time, if you shoot in manual focus all of the time and do not want any of the new "features" on the K7, don't upgrade and wait for the K8, or whatever. I'm sure by then the camera will be smart enough not to record bad photos on your SD Card.
In that case, I will have very few photos...

07-11-2009, 03:51 PM   #17
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I have a K10D and even though I had wanted the K20D since it was announced, I never got one because it just wasn't a big enough step up for me to choose it over lenses. I'm glad I waited because even though the sensor is very similar between the K-7 and K20D, the other improvements are incredible. It's quiet, fast, and accurate and is a huge step above my K10D. I love it.
07-11-2009, 04:34 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think it is silly to talk about this. The question is not "will the camera take amazing photos that the K20 wouldn't," but rather "will this camera allow me to do things that I couldn't with the K20?" I have a K20 and am very satisfied, at the same time, when chasing around my kids, I am sure the auto focus could be a little better, the auto white balance a little better, etc. This will end up with more keepers for me, not necessarily awesome photos that I will post on the forum, but ones that I will treasure as my kids get older....

At the same time, if you shoot in manual focus all of the time and do not want any of the new "features" on the K7, don't upgrade and wait for the K8, or whatever. I'm sure by then the camera will be smart enough not to record bad photos on your SD Card.
No kidding? What kind of attitude is that?

If it is silly why you bother talking? I believe silliness is just not wondering an upgraded sensor is giving a better IQ or not. That was the simple original question. Why wouldn't an improved same size-same MP sensor gives a better IQ? Its theoretically possible, and that's what I was asking.

I read tens of articles mentioning sensor is improved in K-7, and I first heard in this thread sensor is improved for just video ability not the IQ.

Do I smell "don't touch my new baby or I will bite you" instinct here? Hope I am wrong.

I am sure new forum softwares will block the supposedly ridiculing so-called very intelligent posts in the future

Again you shouldn't talk as you stated in your very first sentence.

Bests.
Can.
07-11-2009, 04:47 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
No kidding? What kind of attitude is that?

If it is silly why you bother talking? I believe silliness is just not wondering an upgraded sensor is giving a better IQ or not. That was the simple original question. Why wouldn't an improved same size-same MP sensor gives a better IQ? Its theoretically possible, and that's what I was asking.

I read tens of articles mentioning sensor is improved in K-7, and I first heard in this thread sensor is improved for just video ability not the IQ.

Do I smell "don't touch my new baby or I will bite you" instinct here? Hope I am wrong.

I am sure new forum softwares will block the supposedly ridiculing so-called very intelligent posts in the future

Again you shouldn't talk as you stated in your very first sentence.

Bests.
Can.
Did you read any of the other posts on this thread?

Your original post has a rather confrontational tone, so you shouldn't be too surprised if you get some push back.

If you look at threads here from people who actually OWN and USE the K7, I don't think you'll find anyone that claims the sensor gives better iq over the K20d.

If you are reading "reviews" out on the interwebs, please realize that most (all?) are written by people who don't own the camera or have any perspective on relative merits. Many have personal bias. And some sites just regurgitate what others write. I will take user comments (taken with appropriate large grain of salt) over "reviewers."

At any rate, go back and re-read the others posts on this thread as well as ones comparing the K20d and K7 here. You will find it pretty unanimous that the "improved sensor" (that is marketing speak) is about features not absolute iq relative to the K20d. But the sensor is only part of the equation so you have to consider the whole package. And this is where most "reviews" fall down - they concentrate on specs and ignore the whole.

The reality is that I'm getting more "keepers" with the K7 due to improved AF and metering. Does that mean I am getting better iq than my K20d? Well, depends on how you define that. If you mean resolution, probably not. If you mean, "did I get a good, quality image?" then the answer is yes.

07-11-2009, 05:01 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Did you read any of the other posts on this thread?

Your original post has a rather confrontational tone, so you shouldn't be too surprised if you get some push back.

If you look at threads here from people who actually OWN and USE the K7, I don't think you'll find anyone that claims the sensor gives better iq over the K20d.
.
Yes, but that was little more than a push-back, Anyways I read almost everything in here and of course more about K-7, but I can't remember anything about IQ comparison. Now thats normal because information about everyday use of K-7 is just started pouring, say about a week. I think it is the time to for asking. So I did.

Bests.
Can.
07-12-2009, 07:58 PM   #21
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At least you are still reading. I sort of lost interest in this end of the forum when it became all K-7, all the time. The buzz is certainly understandable, but I do miss some threads about other bodies.
07-13-2009, 04:21 AM   #22
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Two remarks:
- sensor improvement doesn't necessarily mean IQ improvement. In the case of the K-7 the improvement was speed above all. To allow the 5.2fps and the video mode.
- good high ISO shots require exposing to the right, which was a bit hard using previous Pentax DSLRs' conservative metering which included some margin to avoid blowing highlights. You could set Ev compensation to +1 Ev, but not without risking blowing the highlights. The new 77 zone metering seems to be much better at determining exposure to the right, without requiring the safety margin. As such better use of the sensor's resolution is achieved and images need to be brightened less. Result is less of the shadow noise being promoted to the much more visible midtones. In practice this gives less noisy high ISO shots (though also longer shutter speeds).

Wim
07-13-2009, 05:01 AM   #23
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You are absolutely right. I own both. I am much happier with the AWB and color resoution on the K-7

07-13-2009, 07:55 AM   #24
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This all reminds me of another conversation I had as a budding young guitarist. A very fine musician picked up my "piece of junk" guitar and played it brilliantly. I never thought that guitar could make that kind of music.

Ironically, the guy then looked at me and said "You need a better guitar." But I'd just heard this master musician make my guitar sing! His explanation was that sure, a master can make any piece of junk sound good. But an amateur, who might never become a master, needs a bit more help. The amateur, who doesn't know every detail, every technique, who doesn't have years of intuition shaping each shot, appreciates good ergonomics, better metering, etc.

Fact is the K20D images aren't that much better than the K10D was (I have had both and loved them). But what folks like about the K20D over the K10D was the package and options, the control. Likewise, the K-7 offers a number of features that make it more likely that "enthusiasts" like me will have more keepers from one session of shooting than I would before. I also feel more comfortable experimenting with HDR, color extraction, etc. because it's so simple.

SO all you professionals and masters who don't need anything but a pinhole camera, carry on! I'm enjoying the amenities offered by the K-7 and appreciating the harder time I am having deciding what to delete and what to keep.
07-13-2009, 08:05 AM   #25
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One issue that seems to be better is chroma noise in shadows...look at this thread for an example w/ the lens caps:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/66151-my-k-7-vs-k-...arisons-3.html
Random hot pixels also sound like they're better (though again, not an issue if you use a good RAW converter and don't shoot JPEG...Gimp does pretty well for me).
07-13-2009, 08:18 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by lawsonstone Quote
Fact is the K20D images aren't that much better than the K10D was (I have had both and loved them). But what folks like about the K20D over the K10D was the package and options, the control. Likewise, the K-7 offers a number of features that make it more likely that "enthusiasts" like me will have more keepers from one session of shooting than I would before. I also feel more comfortable experimenting with HDR, color extraction, etc. because it's so simple.
.
Ok, if you say K10 and K20 IQ is the same obviously you are *not* making large prints than.

Kenyee finally pointed a better K7 picture than K20's. But its 3200 ASA regarding chroma noise, lot better.

As ,being recently converted from 50 ASA film, now wondering if 100 ASA noise is better in K-7. Probably not, but if there is a difference I would love to know....

K-7 price is twice of K20 nowadays, you know. :ugh:

Last edited by cbaytan; 07-13-2009 at 10:18 AM.
07-13-2009, 09:18 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Ok, if you say K10 and K20 IQ is the same obviously you are making large prints than.
Kenyee finally pointed a better K7 picture than K20's. But its 3200 ASA regarding chroma noise, lot better.
As ,being recently converted from 50 ASA film, now wondering if 100 ASA noise is better in K-7. Probably not, but if there is a difference I would love to know....
K-7 price is twice of K20 nowadays, you know. :ugh:
Dunno if the K-7 is that much BETTER. But it certainly is very GOOD.
The original reports, and many reviews, said the K20D IQ was only slightly better than that of the K10D. More than one K20D reivew said that, while a great camera, it may not be worth the upgrade price if one already owned a K10D.

And, when the K20D was first released, it too was $1,295.

So, if we fast-forward 18 months or so, when the NEXT Pentax is released, are we going to see lots of these same posts?

"The K-xx has no better picture IQ than my K-7!"
"And look at the $1,295 asking price! The K-7 is selling for HALF of that price!"

It appears some K20D owners will wait one generation until upgrading. nothing wrong with that. Many K10D owners did the same thing - I'm one of them. At the time the K20D came out, it simply wasn't worth the upgrade from my K10D. And, even now, with the better price, the two stumbling blocks to my upgrade were the non-improved FPS and AF speed.

The K-7 has addressed to concerns. And added a LOT of new stuff, to boot. The new LCD will be a dream to use; at least, that's what everyone said when the same LCD came out on the Nikon D300. I personally WANT to have video, so I carry just ONE camera to my sons' basketball and soccer games.

I think the better metering will - for me, at least - result in better high ISO shots, because I employ the ETTR (expose-to-the-right) technique.

The better WB will also be nice, because I don't ALWAYS shoot RAW.

Don't know for sure yet about the size, but from what I've read, the grip/feel in the hand is great, and the smaller size does not result in any "it's too small to use" type of issues. I like a deep grip, even on a small(er) camera.

Waiting fro the reviews, but feeling pretty pretty good about the K-7.

Oh, and as for the price? Well, I'm already committed to waiting until at least Christmas, maybe later. I'll wait until it's in the $900 price range.

--Greg
07-13-2009, 09:34 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
No kidding? What kind of attitude is that?

If it is silly why you bother talking? I believe silliness is just not wondering an upgraded sensor is giving a better IQ or not. That was the simple original question. Why wouldn't an improved same size-same MP sensor gives a better IQ? Its theoretically possible, and that's what I was asking.

I read tens of articles mentioning sensor is improved in K-7, and I first heard in this thread sensor is improved for just video ability not the IQ.

Do I smell "don't touch my new baby or I will bite you" instinct here? Hope I am wrong.

I am sure new forum softwares will block the supposedly ridiculing so-called very intelligent posts in the future

Again you shouldn't talk as you stated in your very first sentence.

Bests.
Can.
Can,

I'm on your side here. I think it is rude that some people choose to chastise you for asking the question. Whether silly or not, you just wanted to know if the K7 took 'better' photos (e.g. IQ). Nothing wrong with asking.

I'm not sure what's wrong with some members but they ought to learn a little bit about civility.

QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Do I smell "don't touch my new baby or I will bite you" instinct here? Hope I am wrong.
Unfortunately, you are right on the money!

I've been bitten several times because I DARED to discuss a limitation or two with my K20D. Some Pentax owners seem to have the attitude that if the camera works perfectly for them, there is nothing wrong. If you don't agree with the status quo, you shouldn't own a Pentax.

Fortunately, I believe this sort are in the minority. Most people are respectful of other's views OR questions.

In answer to your specific question, the IQ between the two cameras is virtually identical. There was another recent posting comparing high ISO photos between the K7 and K20D and it appears that the K7 might retain more detail at high ISOs. It was actually quite apparent, however, I am unsure of how well the conditions were controlled; it is possible that a K7 bias was introduced.

For myself, if I find out for fact that DFS (Dark Frame Subtraction) is forced on all bulb mode exposures (like it is on the K20D), I will not purchase this camera.
07-13-2009, 10:01 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Did you read any of the other posts on this thread?

Your original post has a rather confrontational tone, so you shouldn't be too surprised if you get some push back.
But there is no reason for some people to act rudely toward the OP.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
If you are reading "reviews" out on the interwebs, please realize that most (all?) are written by people who don't own the camera or have any perspective on relative merits. Many have personal bias. And some sites just regurgitate what others write. I will take user comments (taken with appropriate large grain of salt) over "reviewers."
Hmmm.... I think both owners and non-owners have a bias. Few people who spend $1500 on their new K7 are going to focus on any potential problems with their camera (and there are some). In fact, they are more likely going to gloss over the short comings.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The reality is that I'm getting more "keepers" with the K7 due to improved AF and metering.
I had to laugh a bit when you mentioned K7's AF.

As a testament to the sometimes extreme and nonsensical bias in this group, not too long ago (but before any talk about the K7), I got involved in several [heated] debates about:

a) K20D relatively slow and inaccurate AF and that my 10 year old Pentax MZ-S outperformed the K20D's AF.
b) I felt that a magnesium alloy body was better (again MZ-S vs K20D body)
Many Pentax owners argued that MagAlloy was inferior, corroded, it sucks
on the Canon D40, blah, blah, etc.

Well, well.... here we are today and now Pentaxians are talking about how much better the K7's AF is..... and what? The K7 has a MagAlloy body? Really?



Hey, I am just having fun. But I could say I told you so.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Does that mean I am getting better iq than my K20d? Well, depends on how you define that. If you mean resolution, probably not. If you mean, "did I get a good, quality image?" then the answer is yes.
I don't think anyone (in their right mind) should complain about 14MP being not enough. The K20D/K7 are right up there for the price of the camera. I think most of us agree that any more MPs will not make a lick of difference in IQ. Only better lenses and a bigger sensor will improve IQ.
07-13-2009, 10:09 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by lawsonstone Quote
SO all you professionals and masters who don't need anything but a pinhole camera, carry on! I'm enjoying the amenities offered by the K-7 and appreciating the harder time I am having deciding what to delete and what to keep.
There is a professional photographer who has done an exhibit based on photos taken with nothing more than a pinhole camera. Sorry, I cannot remember his name.

There is also the Legacy Project where they created that largest pinhole camera ever made... The Legacy Photo Project

Pretty remarkable!
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