Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
07-13-2009, 10:13 AM   #31
Banned




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Savannah, U.S./Baguio City, P.H.
Posts: 5,979
QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
There is a professional photographer who has done an exhibit based on photos taken with nothing more than a pinhole camera. Sorry, I cannot remember his name.

There is also the Legacy Project where they created that largest pinhole camera ever made... The Legacy Photo Project

Pretty remarkable!
this is unbelievably incredible. thanks for the link!

07-13-2009, 10:31 AM   #32
Veteran Member
nostatic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: socal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,576
QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Hmmm.... I think both owners and non-owners have a bias. Few people who spend $1500 on their new K7 are going to focus on any potential problems with their camera (and there are some). In fact, they are more likely going to gloss over the short comings.
Hence my reference to taking them with a large grain of salt.

At least the bias here is evident and can be filtered. The problem with "review" sites is they pretend to be unbiased (which of course is impossible), but often have ulterior motives and other influences that are not transparent to the reader (read: advertising $$$).

I don't think I've been a Pentax apologist - I know the shortcomings of the system. I can say that I've gotten great images out of the K20d despite it being challenged with low light AF at times and AWB. The K7 is a pretty clear improvement but I have to admit that I might be sending it back. While Pentax has fixed a lot of what people where complaining about (AF, metering, fps), they also went and made the body physically smaller. And while they did a nice job of contouring I'm finding that it is just too small for my hand and when I carry it for extended periods it isn't comfortable. I'm not typical though in my use so ymmv.

For me ergonomics is critical. When I shoot I tend to walk with camera in hand for extended periods. And the buttons need to be easily accessible and I like good menus. That is one reason I like Pentax - I think the K20d has an excellent physical layout. By contrast, the K7 is a step backwards *for me* because now everything is more crowded and my thumb, which has chronic tendonitis from years of sports and music playing abuse, starts aching due to the angle of attack.

At any rate, didn't mean to totally derail here but more to say that there is more to taking pictures than, "is the iq better?" And as always, it is a compromise. While I might like Nikon AF, do I like the shot I get? Do I like the colors? Does it easily convert to b&w with a good look? Are there small primes that I like? Is the UI easy to move around?

I love the Sony a900 files - gorgeous colors. I love Zeiss glass, but their lenses are big and heavy compared to Pentax stuff. And it costs over twice as much. I love the concept of the 5Dmk2 but never have liked the handling of Canon dSLR bodies (though my XH-A1). So you look for the best compromise. At this point I'm considering Olympus EP-1 as my "high rez" street cam, then maybe getting a "big" dSLR when I want a really nice file. I totally get why the K7 is a hit for a lot of people - just like the G1 is a hit. There is a big demand for a small, tough camera that takes great photos. Unfortunately for me that form factor just doesn't thrill me...
07-13-2009, 11:22 AM   #33
Site Supporter




Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wilmore, KY
Posts: 350
I have always been a bit frustrated with the AF on the K20D and have said so. I learned to work with it, but my nice surprise when I got a K2000 was the AF was clearly snappier. Though I love the sophistication of the K20D, I found myself grabbing the K2000 when I knew I would be on the run.

Now with the K-7, I have the same feeling but moreso. AF is palpably quicker, more positive, and results in many more shots where focus is not the issue for deleting or keeping.

Some pentaxians have been very technical in defending the AF of the Kxx line, and I think the "just as good for different contexts" argument has certain merits, though withiin limits. I think the K2000, and now the K-7, definitely close the gap on AF.

I also find the Auto WB reliable and gratifying. I very seldom t tweak the WB of my K-7 shots.
07-13-2009, 11:36 AM   #34
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,213
I'm sorry if my reply came across as attacking the OP. I am explaining why (down the road when the price has dropped) I am likely to purchase a K7. As far as sensor changes goes, I think the big changes are related to video and that the image quality is minimally changed. At the same time, I am very happy with the K20 as far as IQ and the changes I am looking for are in the other areas I mentioned.

07-13-2009, 12:06 PM   #35
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,679
QuoteOriginally posted by gkreth Quote
Dunno if the K-7 is that much BETTER. But it certainly is very GOOD.
The original reports, and many reviews, said the K20D IQ was only slightly better than that of the K10D. More than one K20D reivew said that, while a great camera, it may not be worth the upgrade price if one already owned a K10D.

And, when the K20D was first released, it too was $1,295.

So, if we fast-forward 18 months or so, when the NEXT Pentax is released, are we going to see lots of these same posts?

"The K-xx has no better picture IQ than my K-7!"
"And look at the $1,295 asking price! The K-7 is selling for HALF of that price!"

It appears some K20D owners will wait one generation until upgrading. nothing wrong with that. Many K10D owners did the same thing - I'm one of them. At the time the K20D came out, it simply wasn't worth the upgrade from my K10D. And, even now, with the better price, the two stumbling blocks to my upgrade were the non-improved FPS and AF speed.

The K-7 has addressed to concerns. And added a LOT of new stuff, to boot. The new LCD will be a dream to use; at least, that's what everyone said when the same LCD came out on the Nikon D300. I personally WANT to have video, so I carry just ONE camera to my sons' basketball and soccer games.

I think the better metering will - for me, at least - result in better high ISO shots, because I employ the ETTR (expose-to-the-right) technique.

The better WB will also be nice, because I don't ALWAYS shoot RAW.

Don't know for sure yet about the size, but from what I've read, the grip/feel in the hand is great, and the smaller size does not result in any "it's too small to use" type of issues. I like a deep grip, even on a small(er) camera.

Waiting fro the reviews, but feeling pretty pretty good about the K-7.

Oh, and as for the price? Well, I'm already committed to waiting until at least Christmas, maybe later. I'll wait until it's in the $900 price range.

--Greg
Ya summed up my decision perfectly. I just recently bought my K20D but did so as a bridge to buying the K7 as soon as the price drops to something more reasonable for me. Plus it turns out with the mystery "lines" that have been demonstrated in another thread, I don't have the link handy but will find it, I am happy to now also wait until that issue is addressed. I am suspicious of a heat issue because while the sensor is the same the physical internal volume might have been shrunk too far to allow proper heat passive heat dissipation. Or it could be something else...so, I am waiting. The K7 feature set is pretty much exactly what I have been hunting in a body, the size is a concern as my hands might not like it, but adding some Edge Camera Armor will fix that straight away (I happen to be a person who LIKES the feel of the Camera Armor Silicon-Rubber shell) as it adds a fair amount of girth to the body, the IQ is exactly what I expected from the pre-release review models. Less chroma noise (I think??) and about the same overall noise level but in what I am calling a more uniform and controlled fashion.

I honestly did not expect the release to be at full MSRP, but I am not used to how Pentax, now HoyaTax, works with new bodies. I am from Canon where they jack up the MSRP in order to price about where the K7 is now...so six of one...
07-13-2009, 12:16 PM   #36
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Trabzon/Turkey
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,010
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Can,

I'm on your side here. I think it is rude that some people choose to chastise you for asking the question. Whether silly or not, you just wanted to know if the K7 took 'better' photos (e.g. IQ). Nothing wrong with asking.

I've been bitten several times because I DARED to discuss a limitation or two with my K20D. Some Pentax owners seem to have the attitude that if the camera works perfectly for them, there is nothing wrong. If you don't agree with the status quo, you shouldn't own a Pentax.
Thanks for the support, I've just remembered that the only stupid question is un-asked one.

Back to the K-7, I learned from this forum up to know is, the best part of the K-7 is lot better/bigger LCD, even with the K20 I am using I have to use diopter glasses to check what I shot. Would it worth it extra 650 $, I doubt it, I keep reading reports until K-7 drops to 1k, than decide.

Best wishes.
Can.
07-13-2009, 12:28 PM   #37
Forum Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia/Africa
Posts: 52
I don't believe there's a big difference in IQ between Canon 50d and 500d. They both use essentially the same sensor. I wonder if the Canon lads have the same discussions.....

Oh.. hi. can't wait to buy my K7!

Tim.
07-13-2009, 12:35 PM   #38
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,679
QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Thanks for the support, I've just remembered that the only stupid question is un-asked one.

Back to the K-7, I learned from this forum up to know is, the best part of the K-7 is lot better/bigger LCD, even with the K20 I am using I have to use diopter glasses to check what I shot. Would it worth it extra 650 $, I doubt it, I keep reading reports until K-7 drops to 1k, than decide.

Best wishes.
Can.
Just a note...have ya used a body with a 3" LCD before? I have and the difference is not that much really. My 40D is the older low res. LCD not the newer 920,000 pixel LCD, which means while the image will be crisper, it could look even smaller on the 3" LCD than your current 2.7" LCD. I have not calculated the numbers to see what the new ratio will do to an image but I remember when I made the huge mistake of getting a new 15.4" laptop with a UXGA display thinking how great the extra pixel density would make images bigger and cleaner, same for text....wrong...D'OH!! It made everything smaller because of the higher pixel density. I have not compared the current 3" I have with a newer high res. 3" to know for certain but I have suspicions the image will look smaller but the zoom will be much cleaner.

07-13-2009, 12:56 PM   #39
Veteran Member
GLXLR's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 686
I was pretty surprised about the ISO performance as good as the K20D, mainly b/c there was so much buzz about how the new sensor (plus processor) allowed 5.2fps, art filters, and video.
From what I have learned, the digital noise is due to the heat of the sensor along with other things. Video on dSLR was hard to imitate due to so much heat produced during operation (D90= only 5 minutes max recording time at 720p) so I thought that the K-7 would handle ISO performance wonderfully. I guess we were in for a big surprise. This isn't a step back though (very similar noise to the k20D), because the sensor provides us with so much more we can do and I am sure it will even out the ISO performance.

IMHO, I don't think any of us should worry about it. So much else has been improved dramatically, and even though a lot of us expected better IQ, we also have to realize there are limitations to technology. Maybe some firmware updates might dramatically increase ISO performance (4 channel output probably hasn't been used to full potential yet), but for now, if the K-7 has the same IQ as the K20D, that is not a bad thing at all (all the reviews I have seen praised the K20D's capability to capture so much detail).
07-13-2009, 01:29 PM   #40
Senior Member




Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 174
K7 is all about total cost and value relative to target.

A very large list of significant improvements were made to the body itself addressing complaints about AF, etc. We now have a fantastic body. The sensor technology continues to improve but at a slower rate than previously (you can only move the sensors closer together once). A significantly better sensor was either not available or would add another $500+ to the camera. At this price you are now getting closer to D700 full frame which is at $2,300 or so street price, and head to head with D300. Pentax made the business decision to take a breather from the sensor race and wait for the technology to develop more (let it come to you, as they say). Instead, this model focused on numerous body improvements. The result is a large improvement from the K20d in various body elements, but at the same approximate introduction price, and same approximate sensor quality.

There is a sweet spot (as to price position) that Pentax feels comfortable in where they can offer pro-grade lenses, and an advanced to pro-grade body. They have decided to compete in the upper pro arena with medium format and leave the action sports pro users to Canikon. Come to think of it, it was kind of that way in the film days.


QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Holly molly, C'mon folks, ISO 1600 performance, AF speed, strap lugs, movie, other electronic mambo-jambo etc.

I wouldn't mind K-7 have the properties and easiness same as Spotmatic-F with a lousy AF, well, now I've changed my mind, MF is ok too.

I haven't seen a better picture from K-7 (with an much improved sensor!) better than K20D's yet, including these:

Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image

Digital Cameras, Pentax K20D Digital Camera Test Image


Which one from above two pictures seems better to you?

Can anyone show me a better IQ comparison of K-7? (ISO 100 or same ISO and same lens please).

In photographic sense is there more bread in K-7 or not?

Bests.
Can.
07-13-2009, 01:40 PM   #41
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boston, PRofMA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,053
QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
For myself, if I find out for fact that DFS (Dark Frame Subtraction) is forced on all bulb mode exposures (like it is on the K20D), I will not purchase this camera.
Don't get it....find a used CCD sensor camera instead. I think most CMOS sensors have issues w/ noise. The K7 won't let you turn off DFS after 30sec AFAIK...


QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
As ,being recently converted from 50 ASA film, now wondering if 100 ASA noise is better in K-7. Probably not, but if there is a difference I would love to know....
100 ASA noise is worse in the K-7 than the K10D. You can pixel peep the K10D ASA100 images and see very little grain/noise. With the K20D and K7 and the D90 (I have a pixel peeping Nikon friend who was pretty disappointed as well but he bought the D90 anyways for the extra stop of low light performance from his D80 ;-) seem to all have this issue, so I suspect it's the CMOS technology...
07-14-2009, 08:09 PM   #42
Veteran Member
nostatic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: socal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,576
OK, I've taken about 900 shots split between K20d and K7 using every lens I have (31/45/77/35ltd/16-45/50-135*). After having my eyes glaze over multiple times here are a few thoughts:

The K20d is a great camera that takes awesome shots when everything goes right.

The K7 has way better AWB. I do shoot raw and can fix it in post but frankly if the camera gets it right in the first place that is a lot less work.

The K7 has more consistent metering. It seems to be about 0.7ev "hotter" than the K20d and I'm used to slightly dark images so by comparison the K7 images seem overexposed to me.

The K7 handles shadow details in low light very well. I've got some shots of items on a table with hardwood floor foreground and background. In the K20d shot the background is mostly black - I'd have to work the shadows to see anything. With the K7 I can see the floor with nice accurate color.

The colors on the K7 seem a bit subdued and washed out compared to the K20d. The 77ltd is especially prone to this. Part of the problem seems to be Aperture (which doesn't officially support the K7 but I'm shooting DNG).

So in my hands I can't necessarily show a K7 picture that is "better" than the K20d. I can show you equivalent ones that require less work to get. And I can show you video on the K7 that is way better than the K20d
07-14-2009, 08:57 PM   #43
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 74
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
More important to me, the K7 seems to avoid NR at high iso. While this can give more "noise," I find that it also gives more "detail." My preference is to have the choice about NR and detail is something I'll never get back in PP.
This is sooooo important. Thanks Pentax for keeping this approach.
07-14-2009, 09:33 PM   #44
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 74
QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
The K7 is a pretty clear improvement but I have to admit that I might be sending it back. While Pentax has fixed a lot of what people where complaining about (AF, metering, fps), they also went and made the body physically smaller. And while they did a nice job of contouring I'm finding that it is just too small for my hand and when I carry it for extended periods it isn't comfortable. I'm not typical though in my use so ymmv.

For me ergonomics is critical. When I shoot I tend to walk with camera in hand for extended periods. And the buttons need to be easily accessible and I like good menus. That is one reason I like Pentax - I think the K20d has an excellent physical layout. By contrast, the K7 is a step backwards *for me* because now everything is more crowded and my thumb, which has chronic tendonitis from years of sports and music playing abuse, starts aching due to the angle of attack.
I guess a smaller size body is more appealing for Asian market. While Pentax Japan emphasising more on the concept of "a small size with professional build camera", I can't see many western market based Pentax branches and reviews taking it as an revolutionary approach. As well as what I've seen on this forum, probably half of the people here feel it too small. The incredible sales of E-P1 might be an example. To me, K-7 is revolutionary that a semi-pro grade camera doesn't have to be big, in other word, the demand of a smaller camera doesn't need to compromise with lower performance or a beginner design.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
af, camera, cameras, dslr, image, iso, k-7, mind, photography, picture, test
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Picture slow to show on LCD after K-7 firmware update jboyde Pentax DSLR Discussion 2 07-29-2010 12:58 PM
Can camera show a picture after post-processing? KxBlaze Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 13 06-18-2010 10:04 AM
New K20D - (not quite) The First Picture Sailor Pentax DSLR Discussion 8 12-26-2008 09:55 PM
Viewfinder doesn't show the full picture?? Peter Zack Pentax DSLR Discussion 15 11-30-2007 08:55 PM
Coffee house show - Fun Picture Gaelen Post Your Photos! 2 10-21-2007 10:14 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:00 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top