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07-12-2009, 05:18 AM   #1
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Iso picture confusion!!!oh please

I HAVE BEEN RESEARCHING A CAMERA PURCHASE FOR THE LAST THREE MONTHS. THIS CAMERA NEEDS TO MEET AS MANY PHOTOGRAPHY CONDITIONS/SITUTIONS AS POSSIBLE. AS ALWAYS COST VS VAULE RULES IN OUR HOUSE. I HAVE LOOKED AT 1000'S OF PHOTOS FROM THE PROFESSIONAL REVIEWERS PHOTO GALLERIES TO THE END USERS. THESE ARE THE CAMERAS I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT NIKON D90--PENTAX K20D--CANON 50D-- CANON 500D. ANY OF THESE WOULD BE A EXCELLENT CHOOSE,BUT HERE'S WERE THE CONFUSION STARTS;
HOW CAN PICTURE QUALITY DIFFER SO MUCH FROM THE SAME CAMERA (MAINLY HIGH ISO)
MANY SHOTS ON THIS FORUM AT THE SAME ISO?? DIFFER LIKE NIGHT & DAY!!!
ARE THE PHOTOGRAPHERS THAT BAD OR GOOD?
DO LIGHTING CONDITIONS CHANGE THAT MUCH FROM TEST TO TEST??
IS THE SAME QUALITY OF LENSE USED ON EACH CAMERA??
IS ISO SETTING 1600 REALLY 1600 WHEN TESTED??
DOES MANUFACTURES QC DIFFER THAT MUCH FROM SENSOR TO SENSOR??
DID I LEAVE MY CAMERA IN THE HOT CAR TO LONG??
DID I EXPOSE TO THE RIGHT??
DO I CHOOSE ONE BRAND OVER ANOTHER!!!
DO I JUST NEED A MORE EXPENSIVE CAMERA??
DOES A SOUTHWEST WIND EFFECT ISO 3200??? ETC.ETC.ETC.
AT THE END OF THE DAY I THINK THAT THE PHOTOGRAPHERS' SKILLS AND THEN THE HE USES EQUIPMENT RESULTS IN GOOD/EXCELLENT PHOTOS. AS I'M NOT ONE OF THOSE SEASONED PHOTOGRAPHER , COULD SOMEONE HELP MYSELF AND OTHERS IN OUR QUEST TO ACHEIVE THE BEST POSSIBLE SHOT.
I DID ORDER A K20D WITH PENTAX 18-55 ll /55-300/ SIMGA 17-70 2.8/ BATTERY GRIP/EXTRA BATTERY/360 FLASH UNIT AND A FEW OTHER ITEMS FOR 1625.00.
OH, A 3 YEAR WARRANTY AS WELL!!!
I SURE WITH THE HELP FROM THIS AND OTHER FORUM POSTERS I WILL HAVE GREAT RESULS IN THE NEAR FUTURE!!
PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE ALWAYS HAS RESULTS!

07-12-2009, 05:51 AM   #2
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... Is your caps lock broken?

Your conclusion is right. A good picture is 90% photographer, 5% tool, 5% luck (imho). I've seen amazing shots from a lowly K1000, also from the "top of the line" 1Ds or D3. The camera / lens may allow you to get pictures that you wouldn't get otherwise, but it won't automatically make you a good photographer.

What you just bought is a good kit, and should do you nicely.

Cheers.

Last edited by Andi Lo; 07-12-2009 at 05:58 AM.
07-12-2009, 06:11 AM   #3
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To me, it won't matter so much which of those cameras you choose. The lenses you choose to buy do, though.

There is no need to worry about high ISO between each camera.
The higher the ISO, the more the noise and the less retained detail, regardless of the camera you buy. And you shouldn't need to use such high ISOs (3200 and above) very much at all, so don't be so concerned about that.

Some of your questions are a little vague and hard to know what you're after: whose 'tests' are you referring to? How can an ISO 1600 setting be anything other than ISO 1600? How can we help you with your request: "COULD SOMEONE HELP MYSELF AND OTHERS IN OUR QUEST TO ACHEIVE THE BEST POSSIBLE SHOT"?

The kit you've ordered is fine, good value for money and very capable of capturing just about anything. But with regards to getting the best results possible, that would be up to you to work at your own technique with practice and learning skills taught by the pros, eg. in books and courses.

All the best for all that!
07-12-2009, 07:05 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Some of your questions are a little vague and hard to know what you're after: whose 'tests' are you referring to? How can an ISO 1600 setting be anything other than ISO 1600? How can we help you with your request: "COULD SOMEONE HELP MYSELF AND OTHERS IN OUR QUEST TO ACHEIVE THE BEST POSSIBLE SHOT"?

All the best for all that!
I think he's referring to reports that some cameras' reported ISO's are not true sensitivities. I heard something about the earlier canon models not having a true 1600 but more like a 1100. IMHO this is irrelevant anyway as when you're starting ideally you shouldn't start shooting low light rightaway, and instead play around at normal daylight conditions.

07-12-2009, 11:51 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by COULDBE2 Quote
HOW CAN PICTURE QUALITY DIFFER SO MUCH FROM THE SAME CAMERA (MAINLY HIGH ISO)
MANY SHOTS ON THIS FORUM AT THE SAME ISO?? DIFFER LIKE NIGHT & DAY!!!
ARE THE PHOTOGRAPHERS THAT BAD OR GOOD?
I think the OP is asking how it's possible to have two different shots from two different photographers using the same camera at the same ISO, but have different quality of photo.

I've actually wondered this myself. My thought on this is indeed lighting condition and differences in subject. I think that the two different shots will give you the same amount of noise for high ISO, but the noise will be much more noticeable in certain conditions; black backgrounds, high bokeh areas, even and homogenous areas.

I think that noise will be much less noticeable for shots with higher detail, and shots that are generally busier.

I agree with the other posters that the photographer makes the shots, not the equipment. It's really up to the photographer to know when high ISO is worth it and under what circumstances the noise will just be too much.
07-12-2009, 12:01 PM   #6
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We can HEAR you just fine. There are plenty of folks with good advice to help. Narrow your questions to specific parts of this forum and you will get results.
07-12-2009, 12:09 PM   #7
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High ISO results have alot to do with technique.

These two photos were done to show good and bad high iso technique. Excuse the image blur, I was handholding the camera, as I was too lazy to set up a tripod.

Good image:



100% crop:



As bad as I could get it:



100% crop:



Both shot at ISO 1600 at f2.0. Camera was a K10D with FA50 1.4 lens.
07-12-2009, 12:20 PM   #8
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KungPOW,

What did you differently in the two photos you showed?

Dave

07-12-2009, 12:46 PM   #9
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The good one:

Shot in raw, overexposed as far as I could and not clip the highlights. Use the histogram to check this. Then in post process I adjusted white balance, and pulled the exposure back to where it should be.

The bad one:

Shot as a JPG and underexposed. In post process I pushed the exposure to where is should have been, and I adjusted white balance.

------------------------

The real point is that high ISO noise increases when the image is underexposed, and the noise is reduced when the image is over exposed.

The JPG vs. RAW was done to show that the camera will exagerate noise, and smudge details.

Newer cameras like the K20D and the K-7 might be better with JPG's and noise, I don't know.

I actually did this example for another thread. I was getting tired of "K-7 high ISO noise sucks" posts.

Now that megapixels are more or less maxed out for APS-C, it looks like the new camera vs camera battle ground is going to be high ISO. There are now a tonne of high ISO test shots because of the introduction of the K-7. In some people know how to get a good image, and in others, well, not so much. How a person uses their camera, IMHO, makes more of a diference with image quality then what camera brand they use.
07-12-2009, 01:28 PM   #10
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Thanks for the tutorial KungPOW, that really makes sense and cleared up a lot for me!

So, from what I understand, the variable between the first and second shots would be the shutterspeed. Could you do the same comparison with a constant shutterspeed but with different apertures giving the same results (ignoring DOF of course)?
07-12-2009, 01:57 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nachodog Quote
Thanks for the tutorial KungPOW, that really makes sense and cleared up a lot for me!

So, from what I understand, the variable between the first and second shots would be the shutterspeed. Could you do the same comparison with a constant shutterspeed but with different apertures giving the same results (ignoring DOF of course)?
Yes!

However you choose to increase the exposure, will work. You also do not need to push the exposure by much.

The real key is to not underexpose.
07-12-2009, 03:25 PM   #12
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This is what I usually do when comparing images between lenses and cameras. Anyone can take the best equipment in the world and make crappy pictures with it, very easy to do. Shake the camera, underexpose and recover, screw up the metering, what ever......

So, I look for the very best possible, then if you are a good enough photographer, you will be able to match it. PPG is one such place to look for what is possible, if there is no limit for skills.

Now, even though the photographer is the major limiting factor, there is definitely limitations posed by the gear. But, if there is a fine picture taken with a set of equipment, then that best sample should able to be replicated. it is so easy to blame the equipment, I've seen many do it.
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