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07-14-2009, 06:43 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
....Then buy a different camera.....
I tried the long exposure mode on the Canon 50D last night (about the same level camera as the K-7 - with 15 MP CMOS sensor).

Same thing. The Noise Reduction is restricted to "Auto" or "On" in Long Exposure mode. It will definitely kick in at more than 30 seconds exposure.
With the older 10.5 MP Canon 40D, you could turn off NR completely in Bulb mode.

Looks like a common limitation on all the CMOS sensors at such MP densities.

I don't have ready access to a similar Nikon model, so can't test it out yet.

07-14-2009, 07:24 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
You can't please all of the people all of the time. If there are only a handful of users on this forum for whom this is an issue, do you really think that Pentax would devote engineering dollars to solving this? My guess is that in fact this is a hardware limitation and there isn't an easy way around it.

Pentax has made it clear that they are going after a niche of small/tough/weatherproof. They will focus their engineering efforts there. They do not have the size of Canikon to chase every market. So if this really is a make or break issue, then you should buy another camera. No histrionics or rants really needed. Tilting at windmills gets tiring.

Everyone makes compromises with their camera. It is up to the individual to decide where the lines are drawn. It is not reasonable to expect the manufacturer to address everyone's issues.
This isn't something that should require a major investment of resources, only a simple firmware update. There are times when I would CHOOSE to use the in camera dark frame subtraction, but there are others where speed is a major issue, even if it results in a noisier image. Just a FEW examples where speed is important: Lightning, fireworks, airplanetrails, astronomy.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Then buy a different camera.

The vast majority of users find this a non-issue and Pentax has chosen not to address it. If it is that important you should move along and stop trying to tell Pentax how to design their cameras. Hint - they apparently don't care. When I find a company that doesn't care I do business with another one. And I don't necessarily feel it is my place to repeatedly announce to the world how right I am and how wrong they are.
I still love pentax. I've been shooting film for years and already have a collection of lenses . I've only just recently got into DSLRs.. I currently have a K200d, I would of grabbed a k20d but I find the permanent DFS feature unbearable. My plan was to get used to the k200d and digital processing, then next year grab the K7, but I will likely skip it too now and wait for the k7 successor. If pentax announced a firmware fix, I would most likely go for the K7 as my upgrade.


What do you have against us raising our voices over this? Would you rather we all just jumped ship to canon/nikon and kept quiet? IF pentax was to notice this issue, it seems to best way to do it is to make a fuss over it while the camera is still new and is very likely to get several firmware updates. Do you seriously think it is that difficult to add a menu feature to toggle this option?
07-14-2009, 08:25 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
I tried the long exposure mode on the Canon 50D last night (about the same level camera as the K-7 - with 15 MP CMOS sensor).

Same thing. The Noise Reduction is restricted to "Auto" or "On" in Long Exposure mode. It will definitely kick in at more than 30 seconds exposure.
With the older 10.5 MP Canon 40D, you could turn off NR completely in Bulb mode.

Looks like a common limitation on all the CMOS sensors at such MP densities.

I don't have ready access to a similar Nikon model, so can't test it out yet.
does this mean I need to post my sign? Are all these complaints meaningless?

07-14-2009, 08:45 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
interesting, is this one image? does it go light and dark in the sky? .
No.

I'm sorry for not explaining, that was my three best frames of the ISS out of several dozen. A typical ISS pass lasts about 6-7 minutes but I can only image when it is high in the sky above my observatory. I have about 2 minutes to take about 1 RAW frame every 5 seconds until it passes behind a house or tree.

07-15-2009, 03:45 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
does this mean I need to post my sign? Are all these complaints meaningless?
Ah...the Canon 50D I was playing with had Long Exposure NR set to Auto, that's why it only activated on longer exposures. The Custom menu says it can be Turned Off.
Sorry, my mistake. It's a borrowed camera and I'll have to try this out further.
07-15-2009, 08:23 AM   #36
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Damn. If the K-7 removed forced DFS I would have considered it.

If it retains forced DFS, then it's not worth upgrading my K20D, especially since I have had to retain the old K10D for fireworks photos.

Astrophotographers are not the only ones negatively affected by forced DFS, fireworks photographers (probably a LARGE percentage of Pentax SLR owners in the United States at least once a year in early July) are negatively affected by it too.

The K20D is vastly inferior to the K10D because of forced DFS, and even the K-7 will be vastly inferior for such photography if forced DFS stays.
07-15-2009, 08:44 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Entropy Quote
Damn. If the K-7 removed forced DFS I would have considered it.

If it retains forced DFS, then it's not worth upgrading my K20D, especially since I have had to retain the old K10D for fireworks photos.

Astrophotographers are not the only ones negatively affected by forced DFS, fireworks photographers (probably a LARGE percentage of Pentax SLR owners in the United States at least once a year in early July) are negatively affected by it too.

The K20D is vastly inferior to the K10D because of forced DFS, and even the K-7 will be vastly inferior for such photography if forced DFS stays.
I agree - I'm probably going to sell my K20D and buy a K10D just for shooting lightning. I sure wish the K7 could do it all .
07-15-2009, 09:29 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
I tried the long exposure mode on the Canon 50D last night (about the same level camera as the K-7 - with 15 MP CMOS sensor).

Same thing. The Noise Reduction is restricted to "Auto" or "On" in Long Exposure mode. It will definitely kick in at more than 30 seconds exposure.
With the older 10.5 MP Canon 40D, you could turn off NR completely in Bulb mode.

Looks like a common limitation on all the CMOS sensors at such MP densities.

I don't have ready access to a similar Nikon model, so can't test it out yet.
I think you better go look at the custom function II - 1, it very clearly offers 1. OFF, 2. ON, 3. AUTO.

I've been using the D50 long enough to know that DFS can, indeed, be turned off.

07-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Somerfield Quote
This isn't something that should require a major investment of resources, only a simple firmware update. There are times when I would CHOOSE to use the in camera dark frame subtraction, but there are others where speed is a major issue, even if it results in a noisier image. Just a FEW examples where speed is important: Lightning, fireworks, airplanetrails, astronomy.


I still love pentax. I've been shooting film for years and already have a collection of lenses . I've only just recently got into DSLRs.. I currently have a K200d, I would of grabbed a k20d but I find the permanent DFS feature unbearable. My plan was to get used to the k200d and digital processing, then next year grab the K7, but I will likely skip it too now and wait for the k7 successor. If pentax announced a firmware fix, I would most likely go for the K7 as my upgrade.


What do you have against us raising our voices over this? Would you rather we all just jumped ship to canon/nikon and kept quiet? IF pentax was to notice this issue, it seems to best way to do it is to make a fuss over it while the camera is still new and is very likely to get several firmware updates. Do you seriously think it is that difficult to add a menu feature to toggle this option?
Exactly, right on! Thanks Ray!

This 'don't rock the boat' attitude among some Pentax...um... fanboys (with half-hearted apologies to NoStatic) is infuriating! The arguments given are nonsense and one rarely sees this attitude in the Canon forums. Why some Pentax owners so hostile? Is this a superiority complex?

When Canon screws up, I've seen Canon owners join together and scream 'bloody murder'. The differences appear to be that Canon owners stick together and Canon listens to their customer's needs... whether it is using the Camera for Astronomy, higher ISOs, etc. When I say Canon, I am also considering that Nikon is similar in their attitude toward their customers.

In stark contrast, virtually every issue posted by Pentax forum members was meant with some hostility. Examples: Banding problem on K20D (some members rudely suggested one shouldn't use the K20D in the cold!), My own DFS complaints, The K20D body grip complaints, AF issues with the K20D (some members were called Canon fanboys and/or trolls for daring to suggest that Canon's AF was better!), K20D ISO noise (another bit of blasphemy), and I could continue with examples....some are not so serious, some are.

There are all kinds in this forum.... but can we show a little more civility toward each member?

Again, my complaint isn't unreasonable in the least! I (we) are asking for basic functionality that should be expected on any DSLR!

So NoStatic (et al), with all due respect, you are incorrect this time.
07-15-2009, 10:59 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Entropy Quote
Damn. If the K-7 removed forced DFS I would have considered it.

If it retains forced DFS, then it's not worth upgrading my K20D, especially since I have had to retain the old K10D for fireworks photos.

Astrophotographers are not the only ones negatively affected by forced DFS, fireworks photographers (probably a LARGE percentage of Pentax SLR owners in the United States at least once a year in early July) are negatively affected by it too.

The K20D is vastly inferior to the K10D because of forced DFS, and even the K-7 will be vastly inferior for such photography if forced DFS stays.
We all need to band together, inundate Pentax with complaints and demand a fix.

Pentax telephone numbers and email contacts:

Customer Support - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site

Contact - PENTAX U.K. Limited

Pentax Canada - Contact Us

Let's post the replies we all receive in this thread.
07-15-2009, 11:01 AM   #41
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I'm completely new to Pentax, but is this long exposure problem so bad that no one ever uses a Pentax camera for long exposures? Will this problem happen for exposures of less than 30 seconds? Will I see any problems with exposures of 15 seconds or less?
07-15-2009, 11:47 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by lsquare Quote
I'm completely new to Pentax, but is this long exposure problem so bad that no one ever uses a Pentax camera for long exposures?
It depends how often you need to fire shots off. E.g., shooting fireworks, if you could only take half the frames you wanted to because of DFS..

MHO is that for dark scenes, get an older CCD sensor camera. You'll have lower noise even w/o DFS. E.g., I used to be able to pixel peep ISO100 images and see no grain...w/ the K20D, I see grain when I pixel peep now. Same thing w/ a friend who went from a D80 to D90.

I'm actually a bit surprised the K7 has this limitation. The K20D's issue was the random hot pixels w/ longer exposures so the need for DFS varied between frames. The K7 seems to have fixed this (or at least no one has noticed yet)...
07-15-2009, 12:10 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by lsquare Quote
I'm completely new to Pentax, but is this long exposure problem so bad that no one ever uses a Pentax camera for long exposures? Will this problem happen for exposures of less than 30 seconds? Will I see any problems with exposures of 15 seconds or less?
DFS kicks in on any Bulb mode exposure or any exposure greater than 8 seconds in other modes.

BTW, waiting an extra 30 seconds may not seem like a problem, that is, until you are trying to take photos of fireworks, lightning, or meteor showers. Waiting that extra (and unnecessary) time almost certainly guarantees you're going to miss something great!

Speaking meteor showers, the next major one the Perseids meteor shower, which peaks around August 12. Typical capture times are about 5 minutes or so... just watch and see what you will miss while waiting for that 5 minute DFS to complete! Better yet, invite a friend with a Canon or Nikon to join you. He or she will be able to capture all the moments you miss, with your K20D or K7.
07-15-2009, 03:00 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
So NoStatic (et al), with all due respect, you are incorrect this time.
I understand your point. But if you want people to "band together" then start a thread to that effect and march on, soldier. But bringing it up on a variety of threads with, "Canikon does it right..." will eventually lead people to the response of, "well buy Canikon then."

Some could argue that if someone buys a tools that doesn't fulfill a critical need, then the person who bought the tool made the mistake, not the manufacturer.

I know the K20d isn't perfect. But it does what I need it to do. I wish it did some things better, but I had my eyes open when I bought it. And I have learned to work around most of the limitations. And some of the "problems" that people complain about are frankly user error or sloppiness rather than an inherent flaw in the hardware. Part of using a tool is working around the shortcoming. Your case clearly is something that isn't user error though. While I do have empathy, at some point it becomes an old saw...
07-15-2009, 03:22 PM   #45
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In reply to nostatic's comment:

QuoteQuote:
The *vast majority of users find this a non-issue and Pentax has chosen not to address it. If it is that important you should move along and stop trying to tell Pentax how to design their cameras.
With the greatest respect, I find this type of sweeping generalisation thoroughly patronising and am happy to exclude myself from the *herd mentality ! If you'd ever taken your DSLR out to take night-shots of cityscapes or fireworks displays, then you'd clearly appreciate the crux of the problem !!
I think it fair to say that every camera brand has it's fair share of strengths and weaknesses, but IMHO this faux-pas on the part of the Pentax K7 design engineers is simply unforgivable, particularly given the negative feedback they must have received about the dark-frame subtraction shortcomings of the K20D. This was an entirely preventable issue and I am extremely disappointed that Pentax have failed to address it satisfactorily with the new model.

Best regards
Richard
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