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07-21-2009, 09:44 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Linh Quote
err, don't you mean it's glass, not it's sensor? Or maybe, it's mount. I can pick out a few other DSLR's sensors I'd rather have over Pentax =)
I think you've misunderstood what gremlindesign said. He mentioned the "sensor's movement", a reference to the sensor-based shake reduction that Pentax uses. No other DSLR that uses sensor-based SR/IS has as many lens choices available.

07-21-2009, 09:58 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cosmo Quote
Why does every thread come back to what brand you shoot. He was saying it'd be silly to turn up at a pro shoot with a prosumer camera, and you should really turn up with a FF/MF camera. He wasn't saying bring the Canon because of the logo.
Pretty much exactly what I was saying.

Thanks Cosmo!
07-21-2009, 10:33 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
He mentioned the brand, not me. And if you really want to get technical, for some "pro" shoots (where gear is an issue) if you show up with a FF Canon or Nikon instead of a Phase One or Hasselblad you'd be laughed at. Snobbery extends up and down the food chain.

Oh my....

Brand was mentioned by someone the OP that I was replying to. Regardless, brand is still relevant by the simple fact that Pentax currently does NOT make a professional digital camera. This is not an insult, nor is it a demeaning comment, or otherwise.... it is simple a true fact. Why some Pentax owners get all cranky whenever someone points this FACT out just bewilders me.

BTW, with all due respect Nostatic, you comparing apples/oranges.... pros don't usually use a Hasselblad (or Phase One) for a fast action model shoot. Medium format cameras have their place, just not where action shots are done.

QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
My comment stands. A "pro" can show up for a "pro shoot" with whatever they want. "Pros" get hired for their images. Poseurs get hung up on the logo and the spec sheets. The whole "prosumer" thing is pure marketing speak and has nothing to do with the art of making pictures.
As much as I want to agree, your statement is a little misleading. If your reputation is important, you probably wouldn't show up at a gig with an entry level DSLR of any brand and Sears branded lenses. This has nothing to do with logos or any other nonsense. But it has everything to do with performance, reliability, IQ, and to repeat reliability! Reliability is one of the key reasons why professional photographers spend a lot of money on the best equipment available for the dollars they have to spend. There is a reason why there is a market for $2000 camera bodies. Contrary to what some forum members have implied, these photographers are not stupid people.

AND BEFORE someone blows up on my last two sentences.... NO, I am not implying that Pentax cameras are unreliable! Apples to Oranges again!

Last edited by pentaxmz; 07-21-2009 at 10:44 PM.
07-21-2009, 10:56 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Oh my....

Brand was mentioned by someone the OP that I was replying to. Regardless, brand is still relevant by the simple fact that Pentax currently does NOT make a professional digital camera. This is not an insult, nor is it a demeaning comment, or otherwise.... it is simple a true fact. Why some Pentax owners get all cranky whenever someone points this FACT out just bewilders me. .
Again, "professional" wrt gear is marketing speak. I will gladly agree that Pentax doesn't make a FF camera, but the terms "professional," "prosumer," "semi-pro," etc are all just made up terms largely based on price point. I don't get cranky when someone says Pentax doesn't make a "professional" digital camera. I've been paid for photos made with my Pentax. And my DLux4 p&s as well. I just object to rather mindless ratification of ad copy without consideration of what the term really means and how language affects opinions and sales.

QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote

BTW, with all due respect Nostatic, you comparing apples/oranges.... pros don't usually use a Hasselblad (or Phase One) for a fast action model shoot. Medium format cameras have their place, just not where action shots are done.
Ahh, so now it is a "fast action" model shoot. I don't believe that was specified previously. So now you're changing the apples to pears. For that I'll agree. But for many "model shots" MF is king.

QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote

As much as I want to agree, your statement is a little misleading. If your reputation is important, you probably wouldn't show up at a gig with an entry level DSLR of any brand and Sears branded lenses. This has nothing to do with logos or any other nonsense. But it has everything to do with performance, reliability, IQ, and to repeat reliability! Reliability is one of the key reasons why professional photographers spend a lot of money on the best equipment available for the dollars they have to spend. There is a reason why there is a market for $2000 camera bodies. Contrary to what some forum members have implied, these photographers are not stupid people.

I have never implied that people who make their living with a camera are stupid. I may have implied that people who live and breathe spec sheets and believe that Dxo tests and brick wall shots are the indicators of "quality" and "professional" spec are misguided.

I have seen *every* type of electronic device fail. In general paying more will get you something that will take more abuse, but there is a reason that people bring multiple cameras to a shoot. When we're on location we have redundancy *everywhere*. It doesn't matter how much the gear cost. We use what is best from the job - from what you'd term "semi-pro" up through "professional." Right tool for the right job. That is part of what being "pro" is - understand what tool to bring out of the bag and how to apply it. In a current project we pulled out a VCR tape deck and ran footage shot at 1080i through it 3 or 4 times to get "the look" we needed. Many would call that amateur gear and approach. We called it brilliant because when the sponsor saw the footage in the environment he was totally immersed in the story.

I understand your overarching point but I still bristle at the equation of gear cost to "professional" photography. There is a correlation but they do not equate because there is more than one type of professional. If you pick a subset of assignments then you can make some generalizations - like sports photogs using fast bodies and long lenses. But if you broaden the horizons you find that all sorts of gear gets used, and especially more in the arts, the *person* is the most important piece of hardware. The electronic bits mean very little. My g/f has sold a number of photographs all taken with p&s cameras. They hang in galleries all over the world as well as in private collections. Since she was paid for them I believe she qualifies as "professional." But her Digital Elph wouldn't really put her in that camp. So do we focus on the gear (easy to quantify) or the product ( harder to quantify unless someone buys it).

I acutally think we see fairly eye to eye, but I'm taking you to task on the language use as I think that meaning gets skewed by playing fast and loose with terminology. And then things get codified that really have alternate or in fact *no* real meaning,a and before you know it, we've got a marketing campaign break out before our very eyes.


Last edited by nostatic; 07-21-2009 at 11:02 PM.
07-21-2009, 11:07 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
O If your reputation is important, you probably wouldn't show up at a gig with an entry level DSLR of any brand and Sears branded lenses. This has nothing to do with logos or any other nonsense. But it has everything to do with performance, reliability, IQ, and to repeat reliability!!
Not necessarily. It likely has to do with the image that one gets. And the sponsor shouldn't give a flying fark what gear is involved. Some photographers get their shot using "bad" gear. Just like some musicians play Silvertone guitars and crappy amps. It allows them to realize their vision. Same with the photographer.

IQ is a misnomer. We usually assume it to mean the "best" "cleanest" image available. But there are other qualities that may be more important. And it is up to the photographer to make those choices and understand those choices.

Holgas, Sears lenses, etc are conscious choices made by the phographer to get a look they are seeking. Are they "semi-pro" or "amateur" becuase they are using "crappy" gear?

It isn't so clear cut once you get out of the world of shooting pro sports and models. There is a lot more out there...

Last edited by nostatic; 07-22-2009 at 03:56 PM.
07-22-2009, 02:01 AM   #81
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If you do not need a 100% weather sealed body with a few select lenses to choose from, there is no need for anybody who owns a Canon or Nikon even Olympus to abandon their choice.

Regards

Dylan
07-22-2009, 03:36 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
As much as I want to agree, your statement is a little misleading. If your reputation is important, you probably wouldn't show up at a gig with an entry level DSLR of any brand and Sears branded lenses. This has nothing to do with logos or any other nonsense. But it has everything to do with performance, reliability, IQ, and to repeat reliability! !


Nonsense! A photographers reputation is based on the photographs he produces. Nothing more.
Every DSLR on the market give "professional" results in hands of a competent photographer.
07-22-2009, 03:40 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
If you do not need a 100% weather sealed body with a few select lenses to choose from, there is no need for anybody who owns a Canon or Nikon even Olympus to abandon their choice.Dylan

Disagree. Most people choose brands for "irrational" reasons. All thats needed to abandon Nikon or Canon for Pentax (or vice versa) is that you want to....

07-22-2009, 07:26 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxmz Quote
Brand was mentioned by someone the OP that I was replying to. Regardless, brand is still relevant by the simple fact that Pentax currently does NOT make a professional digital camera. This is not an insult, nor is it a demeaning comment, or otherwise.... it is simple a true fact. Why some Pentax owners get all cranky whenever someone points this FACT out just bewilders me.
Because there is no such thing as a pro camera: there's marketing talk however and 98% idiots fall into it.
07-22-2009, 07:43 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Because there is no such thing as a pro camera: there's marketing talk however and 98% idiots fall into it.
There are some features that IMO make a camera "pro", one of the biggest ones being the ability to record to more than one memory card.
07-22-2009, 03:10 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Because there is no such thing as a pro camera: there's marketing talk however and 98% idiots fall into it.
There is such thing as a pro camera, but 2% of idiots believe they know better.
07-22-2009, 05:06 PM   #87
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All products have a "pro level". Cars, boats, cameras, tools, pencil leads, monitors, kitchen knives, shoes. Everything.

People are not "pros" because of the tools they choose to use, they are Pros because of the work they produce.

---------------------

As for abandoning Canon or Nikon for Pentax? I doubt it. I expect most unhappy Canon users jump to Nikon, and those with Nikon jump to Canon.

But I think that many Canikon users could be interested in owning a K-7 and a handfull of limiteds for those days that the D700 & 24-70 AF-S 2.8 is just too heavy.
07-22-2009, 05:45 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by jstevewhite Quote

*snip*

I think a lot of the victims of LBA here - when I look at the long lens lists! - could easily have built a Canon FF kit over Pentax if they'd so chosen, so I think the question is not so stupid as you'd have us believe.
I agree with most of what you have written but the above. Having a long list of lenses does not necessarily mean you can afford a Canon FF. Yes, my lenses are worth more than a Canon FF body ...probably much more. But they were accumulated over many years, not the single outlay required for a FF body. As an example, even tho I lust after it mightily, the FA 31mm ltd is out of my price range, and unless something changes drastically it always will be. And compare the cost of that single lens to a Canon FF body and you can see what I mean.

NaCl(the cost of a collection has to be divided by the number of years collecting)H2O
07-22-2009, 06:06 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cosmo Quote
There is such thing as a pro camera, but 2% of idiots believe they know better.
What do the other 98% of idiots believe?
07-22-2009, 06:16 PM   #90
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what is the difference using a FF dslr with kit lens versus an APS-C dslr with prime ltd lens?

what do you think is better? does being better makes someone a pro equipment? does using a FF dslr make a person professional?
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