[falconeye]

The sad thing is, that when the returns system is abused, we all lose........
Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

Helen,

I feel the same and I never ordered an item to try it. Doing so feels like unsocial to me as it does to you. And this probably is all that ever needs to be said for the US.

However ...

In Germany there is a law which enforces online dealers to accept returns within the 2 weeks after purchase (and even pay for return fees). This law was created to protect retail shops from overly aggressive online prices. The idea was that retail shops have the product they sell on display and the customer can try them out. So, to make things fair, an online dealer shall offer some way to do a retail store-like test as well. So, Germany made a law he would have to accept returns if the product was just used like in a retail store test.

So, a customer who is ordering online to just try it out (in Germany) is not abusing the returns system, although it feels like abusing it. At least not more than walking into a store, trying a product and then not buying it.


Now, the more reputed German online dealers offer the boxes returned in mint condition at a slightly reduced price. As they are not "new" anymore, only "like new". This inevitably adds to the cost of online merchandise. Exactly what was the intention of the German law...


Funny enough, because there is no return guarantee for items purchased in a retail store (by law), some shops have better prices when you walk into the store and pick it up. Or they copy the return policy to not turn customers away.

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Last edited by falconeye; 07-22-2009 at 04:36 AM.

[ManuH]

I think it is a question of tone and approach. At some point "constructive criticism" turns into rants that accomplish nothing other than annoying people.

Great post Nostatic, I wanted to answer something similar but you did it perfectly. I also think that it's a normal reaction from many Pentax users to say "go buy a Canikon if you're not happy" when there is nothing constructive coming from these kind of whinings. When I participated in this thread it was primarily to find new information, maybe a new way to better use the system, knows some weaknesses and how to overcome them.

[Helen Oster]

Helen,

I feel the same and I never ordered an item to try it. Doing so feels like unsocial to me as it does to you .

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say 'unsocial'. I fully appreciate that part of our success, as with any e-tailer, is our ability to reach customers all over the world, and that choosing the right camera is a very personal thing. We have a clear returns policy to enable our customers to make the choices that are right for them

I can also see from the perspective of a B&M retailer how incredibly frustrating it must be to spend time with a customer - who proceeds to purchase on-line for the benefit of saving some $$.

Your description of German retailing legistation is interesting - is this now EU law? If not, I suppose that individual retailers could challenge it if they wanted to. There still seems to be some inequality, in that customers in a B&M store can only try out the items on site, whereas Internet customers get to try them out at home

Now, the more reputed German online dealers offer the boxes returned in mint condition at a slightly reduced price. As they are not "new" anymore, only "like new". This inevitably adds to the cost of online merchandise .

We do this too (and sell as 'open'box'), or return the items to the manufacturer, 'though I would have no idea what the economic effect might be,

Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
Digital cameras, all other cameras and everything photographic from Adorama Camera

[thibs]

I know some of you out there won't like the "degrading" tone of him "bashing" Pentax. All he is trying to do is point out the AF-C isn't that great compared to other brands and for some people upgrading from other dSLRs, they should know this.

But I (and others) are curious as to where you base your opinions on. You "claim" that the Nikon D300, D700 and D3 perform extremely well with continuous AF and that the K-7 performs "sub-par", but this completely contradicts what I have seen from other "dependable" users like falconeye, who personally tested a pre-production "alpha" K-7, and the only reason why so many of us believe his tests are legit is simply b/c of the extensive testing he has done and his dedication to photography.

I know it is a burden, but a lot of the Pentax users on this forum will NOT believe you (regardless if it is true or not) until they see some extensive testing. I personally have not handled a CaNikon camera (with AF-C) yet, it is hard to believe that a camera can AF so quickly a reliably.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/67103-k-7-af-c-performance.html

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/65382-k-7-fps-put-test.html

Arpe mentions that turning off in-camera features such as lens correction dramatically increases FPS.

It is just hard to believe to hear someone saying how slow the K-7 is after so many positive reviews said about it from other K-7 users.

No he's talks about marketing gimmick which is an accusation, and a very stupid one at that.

[falconeye]

Your description of German retailing legistation is interesting - is this now EU law? If not, I suppose that individual retailers could challenge it if they wanted to.

Many EU countries now have similiar regulations (I guess). But at least, it cannot be harmonized at the EU level. E.g., many shops in UK have a 7 day return policy which would be illegal in Germany.

And no, individual retailers cannot challenge it. It is German law. The German Bundesverfassungsgericht (The Federal Constitutional Court) has just made clear that EU cannot overrule national parliamental power.

[Jonson PL]

I've run an AF.C reference test
Falk Lumo: K-7 and its continuous autofocus -- PART I
The test setup was standardized by a German photo magazine and results for various brands and models are known.
As you can read, the K-7 delivers 14 images within 3.6s (13 which of were good, run #3). This not only is 3.9 fps in AF.C, it is an exact match of the D300 performance too (13 good images for the same test).

Additionally, your thread title is misleading because Pentax never claimed 5.2fps would be independent from subject speed or autofocus mode. Nor did any other vendor out there.

I cannot see where you are getting your negative mood from.

Thanks a lot for taking the time, in doing this. I do remember Photo Magazin’s very though-rough tests.
Your concluding report is also very good. Works well, how you’ve segmented the K7, with the competition.

I bookmarked this thread on dpreview:
Can the D3 AF track a child? [Page 1]: Nikon D3 - D1 / D700 Forum: Digital Photography Review

Even using a D3 and a fast SDM lens is apparently not enough for "kids running around".

I also remember of a Canon user, who found that Eos 1D Mark II, was necessary for the same.

What you have described is release priority, where the camera allows the photographer to release the shutter even if the camera's AF has not yet locked focus with the subject.
Shutter priority relates to the auto exposure mode where the photographer selects the shutter speed and the camera determines the corresponding aperture value according to the prevailing light level and metering profile.
They are two different things altogether, one relating to AF and the other, auto exposure mode.

Thanks for clearing it out

Try another test with moving objects in good condition.
D300 can make 6 fps with 100% in focus. It's FACT.
K-7 can't 5.2 fps.
My friend tried K-7 with DA*16-50 - NO ANY 3.9 FPS AT ALL.
Approx. 2.5 fps.

So the answer to this question :

And you have personally done the test with D3, D700 and D300 in AF-C? Just like you have personally done the test on the K7, right?

is no ?

maybe it got something to do with China's militarism and English not being a first language. fact this, fact that. and this kept going on and on without any concrete basis. credibility isn't achieved by shouting fact over and over again without anything to show, but by showing real and concrete facts that affirm such statement. I dunno but English doesn't seem comprehensible for him. maybe we should start speaking chinese.

I came across a fun anecdote, regarding this :
Thought of John [Page 2]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

[*isteve]

Not picking on you in particular, but why is it that so often people blurt out "Well go buy a Canikon" rather than agree that some things could be improved, and maybe if enough people make an issue out of it Pentax will listen to them?

When there is a real problem, and I could perhaps quote lens QC and HSS flash exposure as being 2 current issues, then I think its worth doing something about it. Whether moaning on public forums works I would doubt. I prefer constructive dialogue personally. The engineers know exactly how their specs match the competition, and they have the means to test it.

When the OP is claiming that the D300 is "perfect" then the most obvious conclusion is that he bought the wrong camera or he is a Nikon troll or that he does not have a clue what he's on about.

I dont know any camera that can reach its maximum quoted frame rate in AFC mode. With a fast subject, the D300 manages about 4fps with a good lens, which is a very fair performance. Canons are a bit faster on the whole (fewer focus points) but only when tracking near the centre frame.

When you think about it the reason is fairly obvious. The mirror has to be down long enough for the AF sensor to re-acquire the moving target, then calculate the refocus distance, then move the lens before firing the shutter fire again.

At 5FPS you have precisely 0.2 of a second for all that to happen, minus the blackout time (time for the actual exposure + the mirror return speed).

Now the blackout time is what actually dictates the FPS rate in the first place, so you are expecting the camera to effectively do the whole refocus job instantaneously.

Even refocusing a DA* lens in less than 0.2 seconds is a BIG ask. Doing it in zero time is pretty much impossible. If nikon and canon are faster, its simply because some of their lenses move faster but I still dispute the fact they will achieve anything close to their maximum frame rate in AFC mode.
Like I said, I've nothing against real issues, only against ignorance leading the debate. Far too many people on camera forums start crusading against non-issues, often when they dont even have the camera, and often based on their own mistaken interpretation of numbers they dont understand, or testing that is flawed, or some rose tinted impression that the grass is several shades greener in Canikon land when its seldom clear cut.

Pentax AFC wont get much faster till they add ring motors. As it is, my FA* 300 F4.5 focuses faster than my 50-135. Do I care? If its accurate, no. Frankly nothing short of a D3 or 1D would do if you really needed that kind of performance.

[ytterbium]

Do a simple test.
Put your lens to infinity or anywhere other than nearest focussing distance.
Pick a subject closer than the minimum focussing distance and try to focuss.
You'll see one simple thing that wastes A LOT of time doing mostly useless operation.
It dosnt require F1.2 focusing precision to see that the subject is 10 or more centimeters closer than the minimum focusing distance. Nor it requires fancy ring type AF motors.
And its not hunting - pick something with good contrast, with my DA 18-55 at 5 cm (25 cm min. distance) it is very determined to hit exactly the near focusing distance instead of just hunting back and forth.

I'd be happy to know that this is the only such kind of thing with pentax AF system, but unfortunately there are many things like that that make your lens go like BZZZT BZZZT without any logical reason. (If it was like 5..1 centimeters, i could understand it as a margin for achieving near limit closeup focus, but it seems that near or infinity, the camera has no idea where it is until it smashes into the lens limit).

[gfmucci]

From Nostatic:
"Sure it is not just a "marketing trick"?
Or is it a trick of the light?
Or tripping the light fantastic?
Or the fantastic four?
Fore!
Which brings us back to golf where a lower score is better. Pentax is a hole in one."

I don't understand your humor.
K-7 needs upgrade already. Good machine. But really needs long list for frimware 1.1.

I think it's "stream of consciousness" or some such.

From Wikipedia: "Stream-of-consciousness writing is usually regarded as a special form of interior monologue and is characterized by associative leaps in syntax and punctuation that can make the prose difficult to follow, tracing a character's fragmentary thoughts and sensory feelings. Stream of consciousness and interior monologue are distinguished from dramatic monologue, where the speaker is addressing an audience or a third person, and is used chiefly in poetry or drama. In stream of consciousness, the speaker's thought processes are more often depicted as overheard in the mind (or addressed to oneself) and is primarily a fictional device. The term was introduced to the field of literary studies from that of psychology by philosopher and psychologist William James, brother of writer Henry James."

He really can be quite lucid at times.

[Haakan]

I think it's "stream of consciousness" or some such.

From Wikipedia: "Stream-of-consciousness writing is usually regarded as a special form of interior monologue and is characterized by associative leaps in syntax and punctuation that can make the prose difficult to follow, tracing a character's fragmentary thoughts and sensory feelings. Stream of consciousness and interior monologue are distinguished from dramatic monologue, where the speaker is addressing an audience or a third person, and is used chiefly in poetry or drama. In stream of consciousness, the speaker's thought processes are more often depicted as overheard in the mind (or addressed to oneself) and is primarily a fictional device. The term was introduced to the field of literary studies from that of psychology by philosopher and psychologist William James, brother of writer Henry James."

He really can be quite lucid at times.

If you read Ulysses by James Joyce, then you will a good work out in following a stream (as well as other literary stiles). The book was written in 1921, but banned in US until 1933.

Best regards,
Haakan

[xhanatos]

I still think it is a RH alter ego...

Yup.. I think so too.

[Torphoto]

Adorama Camera has an excellent rental department, with a wide range of items. Our rates are competitive and the members of our staff team are knowledgeable and helpful.


The sad thing is, that when the returns system is abused, we all lose........



Sincerely

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

helen.oster@adoramacamera.com
Digital cameras, all other cameras and everything photographic from Adorama Camera

It is sad when that happens, tho so far Adorama has treated me pretty good, I ordered my 5d mk2 from you guys over B&H after all

measurebating, masturbating...not much difference...a cheap substitute for those who don't know how to do the real deal.

Jason

Why? do you pay for the real deal?

[Torphoto]

Not picking on you in particular, but why is it that so often people blurt out "Well go buy a Canikon" rather than agree that some things could be improved, and maybe if enough people make an issue out of it Pentax will listen to them?

I bought a canon

But I also have been moaning about the Pentax af in the lenses, the K7 is very much improved over the k20D af wise but the lenses do need to catch up. The 50-135 is slow, the 16-45 is quick but makes noise as do the limiteds. What I'd love to see are limiteds with usm rings, their af speed is fine ( the DA limiteds ) but the noise isn't at least vs the 85mm ef 1.4 usm, similar af speed vs the 70mm ltd but quiet, and a stop faster to.

I guess the only way for some of us to get what we want is to wield dual systems, the k20D with a 40 ltd or 16-45 for close in work and now my 5d mk2 with a 70-200 ( trying to decide weather to get a 100-300 sigma or 300mm f4 canon tele next ) for when I need more reach AND the af speed as the 50-135 is toooooo slow for stage work or runway models.

[Arpe]

Having used the K20D extensively for sport pictures (guesstimate around 6000 frames), and now the K-7 for around 300 sport pictures, I know definitely that the K-7 has faster fps in AFC compared with the K20D in AFC, and I'm happy with that. What the rate is, I don't know, didn't for the K20D either (except that is was slow).

Hearing the Canons fire off next to me, I know they're faster still, so it can be done.