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07-25-2009, 11:26 PM   #1
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interface/mode differences - k20d and k2000

I haven't found much discussion on the UI differences between these two cameras. What I have gathered:

features of the k20d over the k2000:
-In manual mode, the green button can be used to automatically set a suggested starting position shutter and aperture.
-front and rear dial (k2000 can effectively do the same adjustments when using the +/- button)
-hyper-program allows switching from P mode to Av and Tv mode (instead of using left hand?)
-TAv mode - automatically adjust ISO. (My understanding is other companies effectively have this mode by allowing Manual mode to use auto-ISO)
-Flash mode (?)
-Different program modes - Hi-speed-priority, DOF-priority, MTF-priority. I don't fully understand these - is it effectively the same thing as doing program-shift to large aperture vs small aperture? MTF-priority does sound quite useful but how accurate is it in selecting the sharpest aperture?
-Separate AE-L and AF buttons
-quick access buttons - RAW button, metering mode, bracket mode, SR switch, AF point (how hard is it for the k2000 to change these settings?)
-Fn button (what does this do?)
-dof preview
-something about remote control?

features the k2000 has over the k20d:
-Reworked control panel layout similar to other brands (does this mean some settings on the k20d are harder to access/change?)
-(worthless) scene modes
-help button

Are these correct? Are there more differences (anything, even minor software/setting additions the k2000 may have is good to know)? How valuable are these things to you?

07-26-2009, 04:47 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
I haven't found much discussion on the UI differences between these two cameras. What I have gathered:

features of the k20d over the k2000:
-In manual mode, the green button can be used to automatically set a suggested starting position shutter and aperture.
K2000 has this too; it's just a different button.

QuoteQuote:
-Fn button (what does this do?)
It's a button you press to enter a special menu to set WB, ISO, and some other things; unnecesssary on the K2000 because it has direct buttons for those things.

BTW, you didn't mention the things most people consider the *major* disadvantages of the K2000 relative to other models - no weather sealing, no top LCD, no selectable focus point, no focus point indicator, no orientation sensor, and smaller (pentamirror) viewfinder compared to the K20D. I guess some of those aren't "UI" differences, exactly, and maybe that's why they didn't get mentioned, but I wanted to make sure you were aware of them, because those are really the msot improtant differentiators. Well, you did mention the K20D's two dials; that's the main difference, really.

QuoteQuote:
-Reworked control panel layout similar to other brands (does this mean some settings on the k20d are harder to access/change?)
Not really. Just slightly different.
07-26-2009, 07:47 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
K2000 has this too; it's just a different button.
which button do you press? I almost bought the k20d because I thought the k2000 couldn't do this.


QuoteQuote:
It's a button you press to enter a special menu to set WB, ISO, and some other things; unnecesssary on the K2000 because it has direct buttons for those things.
the 4 way controller? what does it do on the k20d?
QuoteQuote:
BTW, you didn't mention the things most people consider the *major* disadvantages of the K2000 relative to other models - no weather sealing, no top LCD, no selectable focus point, no focus point indicator, no orientation sensor, and smaller (pentamirror) viewfinder compared to the K20D. I guess some of those aren't "UI" differences, exactly, and maybe that's why they didn't get mentioned, but I wanted to make sure you were aware of them, because those are really the msot improtant differentiators. Well, you did mention the K20D's two dials; that's the main difference, really.
i didn't because I have researched those to death and there are many threads talking about it and wanted to focus on other things. I'm deciding on my first dslr and not a huge budget and decided I don't particularly those things for the $200+ extra:

-weather sealing - will be using old lenses but flexibility is always nice in case I do want to go in the rain or something but have a habit of allowing things like these to reduce how much I take care of my equipment - bad I know
-don't understand the purpose of the top lcd - to show the more important things already shown on the back lcd? conserve battery life? provide ease of access if using a tripod?
-focus point selection - didn't think I would use it - seems the same thing as centering on the center and pivoting? Maybe slightly easier when on a tripod but I wouldn't want reliance on that kind of thing to limit how I put into composing a shot. The only thing that I see it as useful is for sports photography to AF on the ground beneath the object.
-focus point indicator - useful, if using all focus points, I would like to know what it grabbed. But can always use center and pivot - except for sports, but I dont think I would pay attention to the indicator in fast photography and I would just use center, trap, or manual focus
-orientation - don't mind
-pentaprism - do mind, especially with manual focus lenses

Other differences I didn't mention: k20d > k2000:
-high iso performance - something I care about and may be the determining factor.
-much larger buffer - also something I think I would care about
-stop down (may have mentioned this, someone mentioned it helps with manual lenses for constant metering or something), but for everything else, it functions the same as digital preview?
-live view - don't mind, from what I read when put in this mode it limits what you can change - true?
-remote/release cable? (may have mentioned this too)
-timelapse?
-extra 2 year warranty - how useful is this? do people get tuneups for their cameras?

k2000 > k20d:
-size/weight - I have not held either but think this would be a big one for me as I would want to take it everywhere and on long hikes and such. Also, I want to comfortably adjust the lens and focus while holding it up to my face as a small guy.
-faster low light AF - I care about this a lot, but haven't had the chance to try out MF in low light which may be much better
-low light iso? inherent in CCD designs
-no automatic DFS? true/false?
-AA batteries - don't necessarily want to buy a grip for the k20d to get this capability
-slightly faster burst speed - nice but low amount of buffer stinks

with these, I am still not decided and, considering this is my first dslr, interface might be the thing that makes me go one way or the other. I lean towards the k20d but I don't want to spend much on my first dslr and would rather upgrade the body later when more advances are made (AF, burst speed, etc)

QuoteQuote:
Not really. Just slightly different.
I've heard good things about it, and it seems to allow access to more options without digging into menus( by switching what it shows with the ok/info button) Is this correct?
07-26-2009, 09:14 PM   #4
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It's kind of unfair comparing the K20D with the K2000, the K2000 is Pentax's lowest level DSLR that some consider to be lower than the K200D. The K20D was the top Pentax before the K-7 came out, the K20D is obviously going to pack more power and more features. If you really care about the better camera overall and the better body overall, you might as well just pull the trigger on the K20D. It's at it's lowest price point right now and it can take pictures with a image quality equivalent to that of a K-7.

07-26-2009, 09:31 PM   #5
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of course it will pack more power and more features - but stricly separating all the technical superiorities of the k20d, how much are the UI/exposure mode improvements worth? If every other stat was the same, how much better is the k20d?

the k20d lacks some things that I eventually want and hope Pentax will do (while having more of what I want than any other brand - I'm picky), so I'm already looking ahead in the future to upgrade to the K-7 or beyond.
07-26-2009, 09:38 PM   #6
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I think it is a mistake to assume any camera is better or worse based on its class. Even if money is no subject, some might prefer lower end bodies for practical reasons. Personally I forgo the entire K series until the K-m mostly because I prefer something smaller. I have found the 11 points AF practical and it is the only feature that I really missed on the K-m. K-7 would be the ideal choice for me but I cannot justify the price. Afterall, I only need a vehicle with SR mounting my existing FA lenses. Though I don't use Scene modes as much, they are still handy when you need to work fast in P mode but with the priority toward large/small aperture or fast/slow shutter speed. The ? button however, could be put to better use as AE-L, AE metering or Select AF point functions (hopefully will be added to the future firmwares). Though I can see the reason for making the main dial so light, it can be turned far too easily sometimes by accident. Hopefully I will find some chance to try my FA*200/2.8 on it and see how effective the SR is.
07-27-2009, 08:42 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
which button do you press? I almost bought the k20d because I thought the k2000 couldn't do this.
The manuals for these cameras can be found online; you might check them for more specific questions. Also, the dpreview review of cameras usually describes its operation pretty well. Anyhow, on earlier cameras that lacked a Green button, it was AE-L that set exposure semi-automatically in M mode. Not sure about the K2000.

QuoteQuote:
the 4 way controller? what does it do on the k20d?
It's how you navigate the menus. Also how you set focus point if using the selectable focus point feature (which the K2000 lacks). To enter the WB menu on the K20D, you hit Fn then left arrow. To enter it on the K2000, you hit the left arrow, period. Saves one click, I guess.

QuoteQuote:
-don't understand the purpose of the top lcd - to show the more important things already shown on the back lcd? conserve battery life? provide ease of access if using a tripod?
All of the above. Not actually a huge issue to me, but it's a deal breaker to some.

QuoteQuote:
-focus point selection - didn't think I would use it - seems the same thing as centering on the center and pivoting?
AKA "focus-recompose". That's what I do, so I don't care about selecting focus point, either. Again, a deal-breaker to some, though. In fact, probably the one I hear mention the most when people complain about missing features from the K2000 - some people really rely on being able to set a focus point other than the center, and are prety upset with pentax for leaving this off the K2000. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever heard anyone get upset about the extra click required to enter the WB menu on the K20D or some of th other minor differences you list.

QuoteQuote:
Other differences I didn't mention: k20d > k2000:
-high iso performance - something I care about and may be the determining factor.
Do be sure to check some actual side by side comparisons using the same scene, same exposure settings, and preferably shot RAW so you can process the results yourself rather than depend on the JPEG processing setting they happened to have set in the camera. And ideally, you'd find several such tests with different types of scenes. I say this because you may well find, as I have when comparing the K200D (same sensor as K2000) to the K20D, that the differences aren't nearly as large as some make them out to be.

QuoteQuote:
-stop down (may have mentioned this, someone mentioned it helps with manual lenses for constant metering or something), but for everything else, it functions the same as digital preview?
You are referring to optical DOF preview. It lets you temporrily stop down the lens to check DOF in the viewfinder, and it does indeed have the side effect of giving you meter reading with manual lenses. I actually am ambivalent checking DOF in the viewfinder - occasionally useful, but as you say, digital preview works for that too, and better in some way. But since I use manual lenses a lot, I would have a hard time giving up the meter reading for my manual lenses - without it, your only way of setting exposure is via the Green button substitute button, which sets a shutter speed for you but doesn't let you check the results on the meter as you scan about the scene.

BTW, I should mention - I had to make a similar decision between the K20D and K200D last year, and chose the K200D. When the K2000 came out, it had much in common with the K200D, but was stripped down a bit further. Some of the differences you list are also differences between the K2000 and K200D, which is the camera people normally compare the K2000 to. Others are also differences between then K200D and K20D.

QuoteQuote:
-no automatic DFS? true/false?
K20D doesn't allow you to turn it off, so long exposure always take twice as long. K2000 does allow yu to turn it off.

QuoteQuote:
I've heard good things about it, and it seems to allow access to more options without digging into menus( by switching what it shows with the ok/info button) Is this correct?
You can certainly change more things without using menus. They aren't thing I'm personally interested in changing, though, so this is also a non-issue for me (but a deal breaker for others). I'm content to always stay with center focus point, center-weighted metering, RAW mode. But if you find yourself constantly wanting to change these sorts of things, the K20D would indeed save the trouble of using the menus.
07-27-2009, 09:57 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The manuals for these cameras can be found online; you might check them for more specific questions. Also, the dpreview review of cameras usually describes its operation pretty well. Anyhow, on earlier cameras that lacked a Green button, it was AE-L that set exposure semi-automatically in M mode. Not sure about the K2000.



It's how you navigate the menus. Also how you set focus point if using the selectable focus point feature (which the K2000 lacks). To enter the WB menu on the K20D, you hit Fn then left arrow. To enter it on the K2000, you hit the left arrow, period. Saves one click, I guess.



All of the above. Not actually a huge issue to me, but it's a deal breaker to some.



AKA "focus-recompose". That's what I do, so I don't care about selecting focus point, either. Again, a deal-breaker to some, though. In fact, probably the one I hear mention the most when people complain about missing features from the K2000 - some people really rely on being able to set a focus point other than the center, and are prety upset with pentax for leaving this off the K2000. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever heard anyone get upset about the extra click required to enter the WB menu on the K20D or some of th other minor differences you list.



Do be sure to check some actual side by side comparisons using the same scene, same exposure settings, and preferably shot RAW so you can process the results yourself rather than depend on the JPEG processing setting they happened to have set in the camera. And ideally, you'd find several such tests with different types of scenes. I say this because you may well find, as I have when comparing the K200D (same sensor as K2000) to the K20D, that the differences aren't nearly as large as some make them out to be.



You are referring to optical DOF preview. It lets you temporrily stop down the lens to check DOF in the viewfinder, and it does indeed have the side effect of giving you meter reading with manual lenses. I actually am ambivalent checking DOF in the viewfinder - occasionally useful, but as you say, digital preview works for that too, and better in some way. But since I use manual lenses a lot, I would have a hard time giving up the meter reading for my manual lenses - without it, your only way of setting exposure is via the Green button substitute button, which sets a shutter speed for you but doesn't let you check the results on the meter as you scan about the scene.

BTW, I should mention - I had to make a similar decision between the K20D and K200D last year, and chose the K200D. When the K2000 came out, it had much in common with the K200D, but was stripped down a bit further. Some of the differences you list are also differences between the K2000 and K200D, which is the camera people normally compare the K2000 to. Others are also differences between then K200D and K20D.



K20D doesn't allow you to turn it off, so long exposure always take twice as long. K2000 does allow yu to turn it off.



You can certainly change more things without using menus. They aren't thing I'm personally interested in changing, though, so this is also a non-issue for me (but a deal breaker for others). I'm content to always stay with center focus point, center-weighted metering, RAW mode. But if you find yourself constantly wanting to change these sorts of things, the K20D would indeed save the trouble of using the menus.
Thanks for the great opinions and response!

For the exposure in M mode, I did read through the manual and did not find it - and that is why I asked him what button you push, because maybe it isn't in the manual. It does tell you the amount above or below the "appropriate" exposure you are, so that may be good enough. Also, it may just start you at the right exposure, I do not know. The only button it mentions in the manual is to memorize the current exposure value.

Effectively, this is very similar, but one must get to exposure value 0.0 (correct exposure) and select this button first, compared to the k20d, but if it starts at 0.0 automatically, then it is not a big deal. In addition, k20d then allows jumping to the correct exposure 0.0 and a custom one, while k2000 only allows one or the other, again, not seeming like a huge deal.

For stopping down with manual lenses, this would be a deal breaker for me, but someone on dpr claims you can do the same thing on the k2000 with a different button:

Re: Picking Pentax: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Looking back on all of this, the things that matter most to me are:
-buffer size
-separate AE-L and AF buttons, especially in manual mode if I want to save the exposure setting (if Pentax writes a firmware to allow changing the help button, this would go away)
-size/weight
-AF speed
-pentaprism

07-27-2009, 02:11 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
For the exposure in M mode, I did read through the manual and did not find it - and that is why I asked him what button you push, because maybe it isn't in the manual.
OK, not having the camera, I won't *swear* to it. But do read the section on M mode again to see if there is any mention at all of pressing any button having any effect at ll. What did you mean about one button "memorizing" the exposure? Are you sure you read that correctly?

QuoteQuote:
Effectively, this is very similar, but one must get to exposure value 0.0 (correct exposure) and select this button first, compared to the k20d, but if it starts at 0.0 automatically, then it is not a big deal.
It couldn't possibly "start at 0.0 automatically" - what would that even mean for M mode? Every time you change aperture or the light or scene changes, it changes shutter speed automatically to zero the meter? That's not M mode at all - that's Av!

QuoteQuote:
For stopping down with manual lenses, this would be a deal breaker for me, but someone on dpr claims you can do the same thing on the k2000 with a different button:
No. The post you are referring to is describing the Green button functionality - a way of stopping down momentarily to set a shutter speed that zeroes the meter. That's exactly the function you were just saying above you couldn't find proof of. Except the post here specifically mentions manual lenses only, leaving open the possibility that it doesn't work for "regular" lenses. That's where you'd want to read the manual more carefully to see what it says about the exposure compensation button.

But in any cases he goes out of his way to point out you *can't* get a live meter reading. Quoting from that post:

QuoteQuote:
What the K20D can do that the K-2000 cant:

*

The K20D can use the DOF preview to keep the lens stopped down, holding the DOF preview while pressing the green button means you get instant metering without waiting for lens to stop down. The exposure meter also updates in real time while holding the DOF preview, so you can manually adjust and see the resulting exposure with the lens stopped down.
That, along with the lack of orientation sensor, are the two "deal breakers" for me. But others couldn't care less, just as I couldn't care less about changing focus point from center whereas that's of prime importance to others.
07-27-2009, 05:50 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
OK, not having the camera, I won't *swear* to it. But do read the section on M mode again to see if there is any mention at all of pressing any button having any effect at ll. What did you mean about one button "memorizing" the exposure? Are you sure you read that correctly?



It couldn't possibly "start at 0.0 automatically" - what would that even mean for M mode? Every time you change aperture or the light or scene changes, it changes shutter speed automatically to zero the meter? That's not M mode at all - that's Av!
I think you misunderstood what I meant by memorizing the exposure and starting at 0.0 automatically. By starting at 0.0, I meant it starts with a suggested shutter/aperture instead of what it was set to last or specific shutter/aperture for the moment that you switched it to M, and does not adjust when the light changes or the shutter/aperture changes, of course that would not be M mode. As for memorizing the exposure value, it does act like Av or Tv, if I understand it correctly.

http://www.pentaximaging.com/files/product/K2000_IB.pdf

page 100

it seems to be at odds with the way it is described working with manual lenses
07-28-2009, 12:48 AM   #11
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The K-m/K2000 stays at the last shutter speed/aperture combo in M mode. It doesn't change them for you.

There is an exception tho...

It's on page 242 of the aforementioned manual.

Prerequsites:
- M mode
- "enable aperture ring" ON (default is OFF)
- aperture ring on the lens must not be in the A position (assuming the lens has one)

Then (and only then) you can select the aperture with the aperture ring, push the exposure compensation button and the camera sets the shutter speed for you. I tried this with my FA50 and it works.

However, if you have the lens aperture ring set at A, pressing the exposure compensation button does nothing in M mode (it only changes the function of the wheel). The camera shows you how far away from the "correct" exposure you are and you have to set the parameters by yourself.
07-28-2009, 01:16 AM   #12
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Everytime I switch my K-m/K2000 off and then on again, the aperture, iso, and shutter speed remains the same as when it was last switched on.
07-28-2009, 09:59 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
I think you misunderstood what I meant by memorizing the exposure and starting at 0.0 automatically. By starting at 0.0, I meant it starts with a suggested shutter/aperture instead of what it was set to last or specific shutter/aperture for the moment that you switched it to M, and does not adjust when the light changes or the shutter/aperture changes, of course that would not be M mode.
It's not so much that I misunderstood; it's that I hadn't considered the possibility of ever *leaving* M mode (you mean there are other modes? :-) and thus necessitating a return to it. In my world, the idea that it might do something "automatically" only on entering M mode means it would have happened once the day I bought my camera and then essentially never happened again in the year plus I've owned it, since it's basically never left M mode. So I assumed you were talking about something that would happen automatically more often than once in the lifetime of the camera :-)

Anyhow, that reference "impact" posted to page 242 does seem to clarify, and not in a good way - it seems to be saying the "Green button" functionality is *only* available for manual lenses (or other lenses used off the "A" position). Assuming this is true, then I have been mistaken, and that's a *HUGE* strike against the K2000 - it means M mode is severely crippled for both automatic lenses (no Green button) *and* manual lenses (no live metering via DOF preview).

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 07-28-2009 at 10:06 AM.
07-28-2009, 11:20 AM   #14
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That is absolutely correct. Working in M mode is slow and requires a lot of "chimping".

------------------

-buffer size
-separate AE-L and AF buttons, especially in manual mode if I want to save the exposure setting (if Pentax writes a firmware to allow changing the help button, this would go away)
-size/weight
-AF speed
-pentaprism

Of all those things I think you're gonna notice the small buffer and the AF/AE-L button the most.

The K-m/K2000 does have some wonderful goofy features - the raw developer and various image effects (digital filters, index prints - http://static.zooomr.com/images/7761587_0fb2913c61.jpg?r=90 http://static.zooomr.com/images/7865514_83d2e02993.jpg), but serious photographers are probably just gonna laugh at those. Also the scene modes are not totally worthless IMO, they produce quite good results. You are obviously not gonna learn much if you only use those, but they work as advertised.

If you really want to find out more about the camera, check this site: PENTAX K-m SPECIAL SITE / Features and also read the Designer's stories.
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