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07-28-2009, 04:20 PM   #1
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Help. Nr ≠ raw?

does the K-7's NR custom setting APPLY to RAW? if so, is it compatible with Lightroom 2?

after tons of tests, i do NOT see any difference in noise handling (chroma or luminance) at OFF, LOW, MED or HIGH for my K-7 shots of the same scene at ISO 800 and 1600 in Lightroom 2.

i clearly see the difference in the jpeg preview in the back of the camera, so i know the setting has been acknowledged .... and i also clearly see the differences in Imaging-Resource's .DNGs from the K-7. i simply cannot get similar results from my shots and Lightroom 2.

do i need to use PPL/SilkyPix for Pentax's NR to work? what other RAW converters support it?

please excuse the fairly newbie question, i did search for it before posting, many thanks.

07-28-2009, 04:53 PM   #2
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as far as settings go, all you might be hoping for is that the RAW converter carries the JPEG settings into the preview of the image.

RAW is just that, RAW. Noise reduction, sharpness, contrast WB etc are JPEG conversion functions
07-28-2009, 06:16 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
as far as settings go, all you might be hoping for is that the RAW converter carries the JPEG settings into the preview of the image.

RAW is just that, RAW. Noise reduction, sharpness, contrast WB etc are JPEG conversion functions
So why do Imaging-Resource's .DNGs RAW samples show a clear difference between NR settings?
07-28-2009, 06:26 PM   #4
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If they truly do, I'd guess it's because the NR settings is stored in the EXIF info, and whatever program they use to process their DNG files is looking at the setting in the EXIF info to decide how much NR to do in the program's own conversion of the image. It is pretty common for RAW processing programs to do that sort of things - also trying to reproduce the effects of other JPEG settings like the as shot WB, sharpness, saturation, etc.

That, or whatever program they using is not in fact converting the RAW data in the DNG file at all but is simply displaying the JPEG embedded in the DNG file by the camera - and that JPEG would indeed have the NR applied. Not knwoing anythng about how IR does their tests, that's a plausible explanation also.

But in any event, the NR settings in Pentax cameras are *not* applied to the RAW data. Certain models supposedly (according to analysis performed by a couple of folks over on dpreview) do perform a small amount of NR on RAW data at high ISO, but this is done all the time, and is in addition to any NR that might be applied to the JPEG via this custom setting. K20D is one model that supposedly does a small amount of NR on RAW whether you ask for it or not.

07-29-2009, 07:07 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
If they truly do, I'd guess it's because the NR settings is stored in the EXIF info, and whatever program they use to process their DNG files is looking at the setting in the EXIF info to decide how much NR to do in the program's own conversion of the image. It is pretty common for RAW processing programs to do that sort of things - also trying to reproduce the effects of other JPEG settings like the as shot WB, sharpness, saturation, etc.

That, or whatever program they using is not in fact converting the RAW data in the DNG file at all but is simply displaying the JPEG embedded in the DNG file by the camera - and that JPEG would indeed have the NR applied. Not knwoing anythng about how IR does their tests, that's a plausible explanation also.

But in any event, the NR settings in Pentax cameras are *not* applied to the RAW data. Certain models supposedly (according to analysis performed by a couple of folks over on dpreview) do perform a small amount of NR on RAW data at high ISO, but this is done all the time, and is in addition to any NR that might be applied to the JPEG via this custom setting. K20D is one model that supposedly does a small amount of NR on RAW whether you ask for it or not.
when downloaded, these .DNGs seem already processed, were they processed and resaved as .DNGs or was the NR applied in-camera?

Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image
Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image
Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image
Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image
07-29-2009, 09:54 AM   #6
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Are you talking about downloading the DNG file via the link on the page pointed to by those links and then viewing it in some application on your computer than can display DNG files, or are you simply viewing the images files right there on those pages? If you are looking at the images right there in your browser, you are seeing the JPEG's that IR created from the DNG files - and again, those could easily contain NR because of either of the explanations I gave (ie, their RAW processing program tried to mimic the effects of whatever settings they saw in the EXIF, or else they simply extracted the embedded preview created by the camera).

If you really are donwloading the DNG files and viewing them in some DNG-aware application on your computer, then the same things would apply to that application - I'm guesisng it's either using the settings it sees in the EXIF as defaults in its own conversion, or else it is simply showing your the camera-embedded preview.
07-29-2009, 10:14 AM   #7
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a second reason that DNG files may appear sharpened when importing them is that many programs have specific default import settings for RAW images.

I use PSPX2 which has an option to perform a "smart photo fix" when importing RAW. This applies sharpening, contrast WB, and saturation adjustments to what it (the program) thinks I want.

I know some other programs , as both Marc and I have indicated, may read the EXIF data from the file and use your JPEG settings to do the intiial treatment on opening.

In fact, there have been many threads about getting JPEG settings correct, with this being one benefit. If your settings are correct, even if you shoot raw, you have a lot less, if any powt processing, since the image is interpreted with your settings.
07-29-2009, 10:25 AM   #8
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Well I'm prepared for all the flaming I am about to receive, and all the "are you sure you...." and "raw processor defaults......" etc.. so please, only trying to assist the Original Poster, not prove anything to all the other folks who aren't even shooting with a K7 and not using Lightroom!....

I shoot RAW PEF from my K-7.

All of the settings that I dial in the camera for the Jpg settings DO come across in Lightroom 2.4. Why? I don't know. This didn't happen with K20D and Lightroom 2.3

But it does. The numbers and values within lightroom do not change between sample images.

Shoot RAW PEF with sharpening turned down all the way, then turn it up all the way in coarse sharpening mode for more dramatic effect. then import both into lightroom, big difference, and the Lightroom settings do not change.

07-29-2009, 10:29 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by augustmoon Quote
Well I'm prepared for all the flaming I am about to receive, and all the "are you sure you...." and "raw processor defaults......" etc.. so please, only trying to assist the Original Poster, not prove anything to all the other folks who aren't even shooting with a K7 and not using Lightroom!....

I shoot RAW PEF from my K-7.

All of the settings that I dial in the camera for the Jpg settings DO come across in Lightroom 2.4. Why? I don't know. This didn't happen with K20D and Lightroom 2.3

But it does. The numbers and values within lightroom do not change between sample images.

Shoot RAW PEF with sharpening turned down all the way, then turn it up all the way in coarse sharpening mode for more dramatic effect. then import both into lightroom, big difference, and the Lightroom settings do not change.
thanks for the reply august, can you confirm you're also seeing changes in the NR settings in the PEFs in Lightroom?
07-29-2009, 10:33 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Are you talking about downloading the DNG file via the link on the page pointed to by those links and then viewing it in some application on your computer than can display DNG files, or are you simply viewing the images files right there on those pages? If you are looking at the images right there in your browser, you are seeing the JPEG's that IR created from the DNG files - and again, those could easily contain NR because of either of the explanations I gave (ie, their RAW processing program tried to mimic the effects of whatever settings they saw in the EXIF, or else they simply extracted the embedded preview created by the camera).

If you really are donwloading the DNG files and viewing them in some DNG-aware application on your computer, then the same things would apply to that application - I'm guesisng it's either using the settings it sees in the EXIF as defaults in its own conversion, or else it is simply showing your the camera-embedded preview.
right. i wonder if those JPEGS came from an export or if they were direct from the camera as a RAW+.

Lightroom is a pretty standard RAW converter, aren't a lot of Pentaxians familiar with it and how it handled previous PEFs?
07-29-2009, 10:42 AM   #11
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Yes it shows up. This confuses me as this was not the case with my K20D PEF's and previous version of Lightroom
07-29-2009, 10:59 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by augustmoon Quote
All of the settings that I dial in the camera for the Jpg settings DO come across in Lightroom 2.4. Why? I don't know.
No flames from me, but indeed, as I said, it's extremely common for RAW processing programs to look at the EXIF and try to mimic those settings, and it's also common for RAW processing progams (including LR) to show the embedded preview until such a time as you start mucking with settings. Which of the two is going on here I can't say, not being in front of your computer. But it's definitely one or the other - no way is the camera's sharpening setting affecting the RAW data, period.

The moral being, don't believe everything you see. It might *look* like some camera setting has affected the RAW data, but what's going on behind the scenes will tell a different story, once you figure out how to look.
07-29-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
No flames from me, but indeed, as I said, it's extremely common for RAW processing programs to look at the EXIF and try to mimic those settings, and it's also common for RAW processing progams (including LR) to show the embedded preview until such a time as you start mucking with settings. Which of the two is going on here I can't say, not being in front of your computer. But it's definitely one or the other - no way is the camera's sharpening setting affecting the RAW data, period.

The moral being, don't believe everything you see. It might *look* like some camera setting has affected the RAW data, but what's going on behind the scenes will tell a different story, once you figure out how to look.
You specifically, and posts like this are exactly why I started out my post wording it such as I did...

Marc, are you shooting K7 PEFS? and importing them into Lightroom 2.4???????????

I tell you what, why don't you shoot some PEF's with a K7 and import them into Lightroom 2.4, then post your observations here!
07-29-2009, 01:54 PM   #14
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Marc is absolutely right. There is no way that the ACTUAL RAW data is affected by in camera sharpness settings.

Augustmoon, I suggest that something strange is going on with LR in that it is applying the in-camera settings to the RAW file, but not changing the numbers to reflect that fact.

A simple way to see what is ACTUALLY happening to the RAW file is to open it up in Pentax Photo Lab and see if the numbers for sharpness reflect what was in-camera and if they can be adjusted.
07-29-2009, 02:04 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote

But in any event, the NR settings in Pentax cameras are *not* applied to the RAW data. Certain models supposedly (according to analysis performed by a couple of folks over on dpreview) do perform a small amount of NR on RAW data at high ISO, but this is done all the time, and is in addition to any NR that might be applied to the JPEG via this custom setting. K20D is one model that supposedly does a small amount of NR on RAW whether you ask for it or not.
Marc,

Thank you much for that clarification. I would like to dabble in astrophotography, and was put off by the concern that NR can't be turned off in bulb. I thought part of the problem was that NR spoils the RAW image, but now I understand that it is only the time the camera takes to subtract the dark frame (which is equal to the exposure).

-David
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