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08-05-2009, 08:46 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from.

You could get a 40D + 17-55/2.8 for around $1700 (Adorama has had the 40D refurbs for $699 for a long time, with a one year warranty). K20D + DA* 16-50 would be around $1400. K-7 + DA* 16-50 would be around $2k.

40D with "el cheapo" kit lens (which has IS and excellent optics) would run something like $850.
Yeah, but then if you can get a refurb 40D, then you also have to get a refurb K20D to make the comparison fair, althought that would only shave off about $100-$200.

On the other hand yllbium, does the el cheapo $200 kit cost the same as the DA* 16-50mm at $700? At least compare similarly priced and spec lenses like the 17-85mm IS compared to the Pentax 17-70mm f/4.

08-05-2009, 09:12 AM   #17
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Ok maybe i overestimated the pricing.

And the situation is a bit different in smaller countries i guess. As well as the Pentax isn't as much bang for a buck in here too, less availability means more price.

If i compare in the local price tracking site i find:
New CANON EOS 40D KIT 18-55 F3.5-5.6IS goes for 1188$ cheapest, but more like 1260$.
k20d body 912$+ DA 50-135 990$. (probably more expensive as well, because cheapest prices usually are fake) = 1905 $

And you get fast, local service with canon that would repair any lens (even non canon).
You never hear of rebates or similar offers in here as well.

Anyway, this was not my point, just a note to compare not only camera prices and direct specifications.

My main ideas was that (s)/he should go to the shop and try some similar cameras, because that gives you a whole lot better idea about the cameras than reading specs.

(like IS is better, but hey, many canon lenses does not have IS at all).
Or for example on knows that Pentax AF is a bit slower, but still expects competitive performance, where Canon AF is basically instant (or instantly refuses to continue if it fails) even with the kit lens, but you have to take your time with Pentax AF (which eventually but will get the focus even under bad conditions - if the subject is static).
08-05-2009, 09:20 AM   #18
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I started with the K100D, and the K20D really makes a huge difference for my uses.

The main improvements being:

All that extra resolution and sensor performance makes crops and prints feasible that I never would've tried before.
The camera is way more responsive - faster focusing, way bigger buffer (I didn't realize how limited I was by the 3 shot maximum burst for RAW in the K100 - I haven't yet filled the buffer on the K20)
Extra control - the extra dial make it amazingly easier to shoot in manual mode. This combined with a few other small features makes it feel much more "pro" than the K100.

You have to remember as well - what are you afraid of with Pentax? Your camera doesn't become instantly obsolete even if they go out of business - it will still take the same shots, and there will still be tons of used gear rolling around.

And, ultimately, all you're looking at is a small chance that you might lose some invested cash - but you can guarantee you'll lose money by paying the premium for Nikon.

My K20 consistently puts out really great shots - I'm always amazed by the colors and detail it has. It's versatile and reliable, and it's really damn inexpensive too - for $600, no other DSLR can match it.
08-05-2009, 09:39 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by ytterbium Quote
(like IS is better, but hey, many canon lenses does not have IS at all).
Or for example on knows that Pentax AF is a bit slower, but still expects competitive performance, where Canon AF is basically instant (or instantly refuses to continue if it fails) even with the kit lens, but you have to take your time with Pentax AF (which eventually but will get the focus even under bad conditions - if the subject is static).
OK, I gotta reply here, this is why I keep posting on these threads -- to avoid bad information.

The 40D will keep hunting if it can't lock focus just like most other cameras. It won't just "stop" if it can't lock on. HOWEVER, there is a Custom Function available to disable focus hunting (mainly for use on long tele lenses since they can take a while to rack back/forth). If that was enabled (default is off) then yes, it will attempt to focus and if unable to lock quickly stop trying.

That said, it is very rare for a 40D, 50D or 1 series to hunt much even in really poor light.

08-05-2009, 09:51 AM   #20
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Current canon lens rebates run thru Saturday. Rebates lasted for like 75 days now...

What do you mean canon has no rebates? They have instant point of sale rebates, not the irratating mail and pray rebates, and not some silly visa card loaded with your money back if again you receive the visa card in the mail and this bonus is cause you first bought a K-7 USA market dslr.

Canon Lens rebates and flash rebates got extended thru 08-08-09


SLR Camera Lenses | B&H Photo Video

Flash rebates:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/3881/Photography_Flashes.html/ac/rebates
08-05-2009, 10:32 AM   #21
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There is nothing like that in here. Canon, Nikon, Pentax.. rebates, are you laughing? If canon made a rebate the distributor wouldnt say it and kept the price difference himself.
If ordering from B&H i'd pay like additional 40% for VAT, customs fee and shipping.
And the lens goes like 1730$ new here, cheaper than 1400*1.4=1960$, but still 330$(- read "some additional lens" here) more expensive than with rebate.

As for the AF i was putting more emphasis on Pentax uncompetitive AF. Seriously, when i got my k100d after reading here and other places i sure knew that Pentax has slower AF, but i had no idea how much slower it actually is. I even did not know it after few weeks of use - i thought well, its a kit lens, what can i expect, probably lenses like 16-50 are instantly snappy and all.
Now after i have purchased, sold and used some better (DA 70, F50/1.7), just good lenses (DA50-200,DA18-55) and bad ones (Sigma 70-300, 30/1.4) only now, when it is already not economical to switch it is obvious that the AF system is uncompetitive and obsolete as whole.
If i had went to a shop and had extensively tried some Pentax top model like k10d (at that time) with some top lens, i'd knew that before i bought camera, several accessories (AA's, SD's) and lenses that basically fit only Pentax just to find out it is outdated.

How old is the current SAFOX? You don't have that kind of questions to ask the salesman in your mind when you buy brand new DSLR. Sure he will say that Canon is better, but then you think that's what they all say and some nice buddies in the internet were insisting that the AF ain't as bad as Canon people are saying. How much can you say at powerful halogen light blasted shop with your first DSLR.. "well it is faster than my old P&S" - but it seems that even this might not hold true in very near future.

Came out sounding kind of bad.. well but true i guess.
So go to your local store and see for yourself.

EDIT:
P.S. And when i was talking that Pentax AF keeps trying i wasn't talking about hunting. I was talking about the fine focusing, where Canon usually evaluates the scene and the it can snap to focus, hunt (and lock) or assume it is too bad/dark and fail, Pentax will focus nearby, maybe hunt and then even if it is very dark or bad it will fine tune (even up to few..ten seconds) until it finds focus instead of simply reporting that it cannot do it instantly (or locking at initially found distance) so wont try at all.
I think if the last part could be disabled, Pentax AF would be the same, because in many situations it is not needed and not possible.
For example if the subject is *slightly* (i'm not talking motion tracking here) moving, you will never get a perfect focus on it.. at one moment it is 105 cm from you at other 95.. where can the focus lock? it can go on forever without taking the shot. But if you shoot at F4...5.6 those 5 to 10 cm's dosn't matter that much.

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-05-2009 at 11:50 AM.
08-05-2009, 10:40 AM   #22
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Yes, and then you come here and ask about AF and get a mixture of "just manual focus, it's better anyway" or flat out denial that other systems perform better, with an endless pile of pictures to "prove" this.

It does sound like Pentax is aware of people being displeased with the AF since they did make an effort with the K-7. Question is if it was too little, too late.
08-05-2009, 11:04 AM   #23
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I'd buy a K-7 if

if K-7 were based on K10D/K20D platform and of course I'd still wait 6 or 7 months and pay about 1/2 of Pentax infamously inflated launch price.

K-7 too small for me, new battery and charger incompatible with my K20D so another strike against...

So No Sale, even when its under $700 or less. My hands won't get any smaller.

As most of my pentax lenses are manual focus, more frames per second just don't matter to me. 2.9 fps is just fine for me. But for everyone else more fps and hunt free af should have been included 3 or 4 years ago, you know with K10D

QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
Yes, and then you come here and ask about AF and get a mixture of "just manual focus, it's better anyway" or flat out denial that other systems perform better, with an endless pile of pictures to "prove" this.

It does sound like Pentax is aware of people being displeased with the AF since they did make an effort with the K-7. Question is if it was too little, too late.


08-05-2009, 01:03 PM   #24
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--------------------------------------------WARNING:RANT IN PROGRESS-------------------------------------

I wonder how many of peoples "issues" with camera's are really just an excuse for their own bad/inexperianced photography? Everyone wants to shoot perfect pictures right out of the box when they get their first camera. Well consider that some of the most timeless pictures ever taken we shot with cameras that had no instant focus feed back (you had to do the math yourself and hope you got it right), had very rough IQ, Very limited shutterspeed control and required a pack-mule to go anywhere.

I don't want to sound snooty. I enjoy getting into the general geekery of Camera tech like anyone else and those discussions have their place. I just wonder if sometimes too much emphasis is placed on the gear instead of on the photographer. I know for me I still have a LONG ways to go as a photographer.

As far as worrying about upgrading. I'm not worried about Pentax going away. Even if the unthinkable were to happen the technology would more than likely be sold off instead of dissapear. Look at what happened to Konica-Minolta. Sony stills uses that mount I believe.

As far as people ragging on Olympus for the small sensor, don't worry about it. My wife shoots with an Olympus E-620 and get AMAZING photographs with it. The size is perfect for her hands and the crop factor is actually a bonus at times.

DSLR technology is so good nowadays that you can pick up any brand/make/model and get professional quality images from them. Plenty of professional photographers shot with the Canon D30 (it was only 3MP) and made tons of money off the prints.


------------------------------------------------END RANT----------------------------------------------------------
08-05-2009, 01:18 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
--------------------------------------------WARNING:RANT IN PROGRESS-------------------------------------

I wonder how many of peoples "issues" with camera's are really just an excuse for their own bad/inexperianced photography? Everyone wants to shoot perfect pictures right out of the box when they get their first camera. Well consider that some of the most timeless pictures ever taken we shot with cameras that had no instant focus feed back (you had to do the math yourself and hope you got it right), had very rough IQ, Very limited shutterspeed control and required a pack-mule to go anywhere.
Sure, but those guys weren't shooting rally cars, birds in flight, home interiors and so forth and so on.

Different times, different needs, different gear.

But yes, I do agree that too many people obsess over the gear and expect it to be a replacement for hard work and talent. That doesn't make the gear irrelevant. Unfortunately a lot of people tend to see things as black or white, and it's either "the gear doesn't matter at all" or "the gear makes the photo". Reality is a little more nuanced.
08-05-2009, 01:27 PM   #26
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All DSLRs have buttons that need to be pushed to change settings. Have you tested other cameras?

Last edited by Damn Brit; 08-05-2009 at 01:33 PM.
08-05-2009, 01:29 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Damn Brit Quote
All DSLRs have buttons that need to be pushed to change settings.
Ridiculous. Canikon reads your mind and pushes the button for you. And with rebates to boot. Or maybe to sandal.
08-05-2009, 01:39 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Ridiculous. Canikon reads your mind and pushes the button for you. And with rebates to boot. Or maybe to sandal.

HAHAHAHAHAA

lol

ROTFLMAO

Now only if that were true and only if the rebates were actually worth while! I mean I saved $40 of my 70-200 and $25 on the ex580 flash, big woop when the damn camera is $2699 and the lens is $1099! well I guess I did save enough to buy another battery.

As for mind reading button pushing, the damn mk2 can't change the bloody aperture with out 3 button presses and a dial turn, well except in manual mode and don't even get me started on selecting the af points. No the correct statement would be canon makes up your mind for you and gives you the settings it wants then pushes the button for you :P
08-05-2009, 01:45 PM   #29
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Agree and not. You dont buy 600$ camera without instant focus feedback and limited shutter speed control. And you expect it to be up to general standarts and differ only in some specific features.
If your skills and subject allows you can still get one for 30$, or a 300$ point and shoot for that matter, which would fit in your pocket and come with a constant f2.8 28-300mm zoom. Where is the point of DSLR then.

On the other hand i must admit that im not always trying too hard to utilize all that my gear and knowledge can offer to produce better pictures. Sometimes i just want to shoot and if it doesnt work thay way i get upset.

As for the bare imaging quality, you cannot expect too much of a general (im not talking some pixel peeping sharpening or specific color rendering here) difference between brands if many of them use one sensor manufacturer and all (except foveon) of them use same basic imaging tecnique (CCD, CMOS, BAYER pattern), which has been developed to near perfection at reasonable ISO speeds.

Still this is all just some empty talk without real help in deciding what should the original poster do.
First thing to ask is what equipment does he already owns:

K100D
DA 18-55 Kit lens
FA 50/1.4
Samsung D-Xenon 50-200/4-5.6
Not too much, but going Pentax would provide a ready to use, tested and known kit as well as one good, expensive to replace, prime.

What are his main needs (for example i'd never buy k20d/k7 because of the high megapixel count.. i just dont have money for so big storage)?
"..small size of the body" - comparable quality Canon and Nikon bodies dosn't offer this, to get real benefits of those systems you had to go Dx00 Nikon or x0D Canon.
Concerns about future - i wouldn't worry about Pentax as whole. But i don't expect it to expand and offer anything more extensive or different as it does already either.

How much can he invest (i could never get those thousands to buy optically and build/feature wise equivalent Canon system)?
-not known...
-if switching systems, x0D would require new CF memory card (probably CF card reader as well), different spare battery, new kit lens (with Pentax you could do body only), probably some low light lens and IS zoom just to begin. Can you cover that or are willing to sacrifice some?

Last edited by ytterbium; 08-05-2009 at 02:06 PM.
08-05-2009, 01:48 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Torphoto Quote
As for mind reading button pushing, the damn mk2 can't change the bloody aperture with out 3 button presses and a dial turn, well except in manual mode and don't even get me started on selecting the af points. No the correct statement would be canon makes up your mind for you and gives you the settings it wants then pushes the button for you :P

What the heck are you going on about? It's a single freakin' dial you turn to change the aperture if in Program, Av or Manual mode.

Or are you talking about video?
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