It's getting that time

photolady95 · 08-22-2009, 07:18 PM

when I said I'd never go digital but spending money on film and developing and having to only shoot when I have only 36 to 24 frames is getting annoying. I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new. I have a few lenses that will work with it for now at least until after the first of the year.

Question 1. What do you guys mean when you say "not full frame"?

Question 2. What does it mean when it says "crippled KAF2"? This question I think I asked before in another thread but can't remember what the answer was. So bear with me and answer it again, please.

And anything else you think I might need to know before purchase.

graphicgr8s · 08-22-2009, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by photolady

when I said I'd never go digital but spending money on film and developing and having to only shoot when I have only 36 to 24 frames is getting annoying. I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new. I have a few lenses that will work with it for now at least until after the first of the year.

Question 1. What do you guys mean when you say "not full frame"?

Question 2. What does it mean when it says "crippled KAF2"? This question I think I asked before in another thread but can't remember what the answer was. So bear with me and answer it again, please.

And anything else you think I might need to know before purchase.

The sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped.
As for the crippled mount:
Features and Operation of the crippled Kaf Mount

Parallax · 08-22-2009, 07:56 PM

I held out for a long time too. Go for it! I have a hard time believing that anyone would regret it. I think you should be able to do better than $699.00 though.

imtheguy · 08-22-2009, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

I think you should be able to do better than $699.00 though.

I just happen to be on the Newegg site and the K20D body is currently $649. Cheap enough to buy two so you have a backup.

photolady95 · 08-22-2009, 08:42 PM

Thanks graphicgr8s for the link to the crippled KFA2, that was explained well enough I understand this problem, if even would be a problem for me, I don't think it will be. All my lenses are either FA or at least A.

Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame?

Parallax, I've put off buying digital except for a small Nikon p&s camera. I just always thought of digitals as digitoys.

Lee, I will have to check newegg. I have an account with them for my computer tech business, never thought to check them for a Pentax DSLR.

KungPOW · 08-22-2009, 09:42 PM

The "crop factor" is a fast way to compare the sensor size between 135 format film (ie your mz-7) and the digital sensor in the K20D.

Basically, the digital sensor has about 1/2 the area of the film frame.

The result is that for a given lens the field of view is reduced. The fast way to compaire FF to cropped is to multiply by 1.5.

So, your 50mm lensa has a field of view like a 75mm lens. But it still has the DOF characteristics of a 50mm lens.

So, if you consider the 50mm to be a normal lens for your film camera, then the 35mm is the normal for a cropped sensor digital.

But, now you are framing a scene with a shorter lens. The result is that for the same scene with the 50 on a film camera, and a 35 on the digital, the film camera will have a shallower DOF then the digital does at the same f stop.

The other thing you will notice, has nothing to fo with the photo. The viewfinder is smaller.

Urkeldaedalus · 08-22-2009, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by photolady

Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame?

Coming from film, the only way that the camera not being full frame will probably bother you is that the lenses you will change their field of views like KungPow said. I primarily find this annoying when I want to find a wide prime lens (20 - 35 mm on film) that is faster than f/4. Sort of a scarce beast in Pentax land, although there are some options. On the other hand, you get more reach on the telephoto end of things, so it kind of depends on what you like to take pictures of.

For the moment, Pentax doesn't make any full frame digital cameras. Also for the moment, all full frame cameras (except the Canon 5D?) cost more than $2,000 for the camera body alone. Although there are rumors that Sony is going to release a new full frame camera for less than $2,000.

photolady95 · 08-23-2009, 03:21 PM

Thanks Kungpow for indepth explanation, and I think I understand it now.

Urk, I don't shoot much of anything except nature, mostly birds in flight or birds, butterflies, dragonflies, etc. I am not too worried about having a wide angle lens.

Now I have one more question. How many of you use just the viewfinder and not the LCD screen. I'm asking because the only digital I have is the one I mentioned, that Nikon and it only has the LCD screen.

I hope to be able to buy this by October, and I'm sort of tissed that I didn't have it a few days ago. I was out of film so I decided to go fishing instead. No camera with me and a small egret landed not five feet from me, didn't move for about 15 or 20 minutes. Long enough for me to get a few decent shots.

Then just a few minutes after that, a great blue heron flew up just behind me. I probably wouldn't have had time to get the heron but if I had that digital I could have a least tried.

nostatic · 08-23-2009, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by photolady

T

Now I have one more question. How many of you use just the viewfinder and not the LCD screen. I'm asking because the only digital I have is the one I mentioned, that Nikon and it only has the LCD screen.

I alternate between p&s and the K20d. On the p&s I always use the LCD (no other choice) but I never use the LCD on the K20d for framing (aka "Live View"). I always use the viewfinder, or just point in the general direction and hope. Depends on the situation...

LCD is useful for checking shots/histograms after capture.

GerryL · 08-23-2009, 03:39 PM

It shouldn't bother you to go from film to digital or FF to one with a crop factor of 1.5.
It is really of no issue as whatever you see on the viewfinder, you will be able to capture.
It is much like in film that whatever you see on your viewfinder, you will be able to capture.
That is why I don't know what the big deal is about the FF.
I understand it a bit 'coz some people can't get satisfied and would much rather complain about the equipment than just enjoy the images they make or the skill they have.
Some of them are always blaming the equipment.

Parallax · 08-23-2009, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by photolady

Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame?

My best advise regarding "crop factor" or APS-C vs FF is FORGET ABOUT IT! If you aren't getting as much in the frame as you want, use a shorter lens. If you see too much or want your subject bigger, use a longer one. Relax. It's about the image, not about numbers marked on a lens barrel.

indytax · 08-23-2009, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

My best advise regarding "crop factor" or APS-C vs FF is FORGET ABOUT IT! If you aren't getting as much in the frame as you want, use a shorter lens. If you see too much or want your subject bigger, use a longer one. Relax. It's about the image, not about numbers marked on a lens barrel.

This is exactly correct and is excellent advice. It's similar as when using a 645 or 67: the same 50mm lens doesn't have the same field of view and is actually a wide angle on medium format because the film size is bigger. There is no correct FOV, only ones that give more desirable qualities for certain applications. The simple truth is that the APS-C format is perfectly fine for nearly all of our uses.

**SelrahCharleS** · 08-23-2009, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by photolady

I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new.

That's not a bad price, but I assume you are in the US? B&H Photo has them cheaper. Also check out this recent thread where you can use Bing cashback to your advantage. The K20D should be an excellent choice.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/70828-k20d-body-on...-cashback.html

Marc Sabatella · 08-24-2009, 09:52 AM

One a DSLR, the viewfinder is what you use. Only a couple of models support "liveview", and it really isn't for full tiem use - more for special occasions. It's the other way around on smaller P&S digitals, true, but with a DSLR, they go to the trouble of putting a mirror in there, and it's expected you'll be taking advantage of it.

Bart · 08-24-2009, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by photolady

Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame?

It means that with APS-C, you get tunnel vision.
But you can get used to it.
To say however that this doesn't matter is - in my opinion - strange.

08-22-2009, 07:18 PM	#1
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712	It's getting that time when I said I'd never go digital but spending money on film and developing and having to only shoot when I have only 36 to 24 frames is getting annoying. I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new. I have a few lenses that will work with it for now at least until after the first of the year. Question 1. What do you guys mean when you say "not full frame"? Question 2. What does it mean when it says "crippled KAF2"? This question I think I asked before in another thread but can't remember what the answer was. So bear with me and answer it again, please. And anything else you think I might need to know before purchase.

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08-22-2009, 07:41 PM	#2
graphicgr8s Guest	Originally posted by photolady when I said I'd never go digital but spending money on film and developing and having to only shoot when I have only 36 to 24 frames is getting annoying. I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new. I have a few lenses that will work with it for now at least until after the first of the year. Question 1. What do you guys mean when you say "not full frame"? Question 2. What does it mean when it says "crippled KAF2"? This question I think I asked before in another thread but can't remember what the answer was. So bear with me and answer it again, please. And anything else you think I might need to know before purchase. The sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped. As for the crippled mount: Features and Operation of the crippled Kaf Mount

08-22-2009, 07:56 PM	#3
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	I held out for a long time too. Go for it! I have a hard time believing that anyone would regret it. I think you should be able to do better than $699.00 though.

08-22-2009, 08:19 PM	#4
imtheguy Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,950	Originally posted by Parallax I think you should be able to do better than $699.00 though. I just happen to be on the Newegg site and the K20D body is currently $649. Cheap enough to buy two so you have a backup.

08-22-2009, 08:42 PM	#5
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Thanks graphicgr8s for the link to the crippled KFA2, that was explained well enough I understand this problem, if even would be a problem for me, I don't think it will be. All my lenses are either FA or at least A. Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame? Parallax, I've put off buying digital except for a small Nikon p&s camera. I just always thought of digitals as digitoys. Lee, I will have to check newegg. I have an account with them for my computer tech business, never thought to check them for a Pentax DSLR.

08-22-2009, 09:42 PM	#6
KungPOW Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,699	The "crop factor" is a fast way to compare the sensor size between 135 format film (ie your mz-7) and the digital sensor in the K20D. Basically, the digital sensor has about 1/2 the area of the film frame. The result is that for a given lens the field of view is reduced. The fast way to compaire FF to cropped is to multiply by 1.5. So, your 50mm lensa has a field of view like a 75mm lens. But it still has the DOF characteristics of a 50mm lens. So, if you consider the 50mm to be a normal lens for your film camera, then the 35mm is the normal for a cropped sensor digital. But, now you are framing a scene with a shorter lens. The result is that for the same scene with the 50 on a film camera, and a 35 on the digital, the film camera will have a shallower DOF then the digital does at the same f stop. The other thing you will notice, has nothing to fo with the photo. The viewfinder is smaller.

08-22-2009, 09:50 PM	#7
Urkeldaedalus Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Iowa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,369	Originally posted by photolady Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame? Coming from film, the only way that the camera not being full frame will probably bother you is that the lenses you will change their field of views like KungPow said. I primarily find this annoying when I want to find a wide prime lens (20 - 35 mm on film) that is faster than f/4. Sort of a scarce beast in Pentax land, although there are some options. On the other hand, you get more reach on the telephoto end of things, so it kind of depends on what you like to take pictures of. For the moment, Pentax doesn't make any full frame digital cameras. Also for the moment, all full frame cameras (except the Canon 5D?) cost more than $2,000 for the camera body alone. Although there are rumors that Sony is going to release a new full frame camera for less than $2,000.

08-23-2009, 03:21 PM	#8
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712 Original Poster	Thanks Kungpow for indepth explanation, and I think I understand it now. Urk, I don't shoot much of anything except nature, mostly birds in flight or birds, butterflies, dragonflies, etc. I am not too worried about having a wide angle lens. Now I have one more question. How many of you use just the viewfinder and not the LCD screen. I'm asking because the only digital I have is the one I mentioned, that Nikon and it only has the LCD screen. I hope to be able to buy this by October, and I'm sort of tissed that I didn't have it a few days ago. I was out of film so I decided to go fishing instead. No camera with me and a small egret landed not five feet from me, didn't move for about 15 or 20 minutes. Long enough for me to get a few decent shots. Then just a few minutes after that, a great blue heron flew up just behind me. I probably wouldn't have had time to get the heron but if I had that digital I could have a least tried.

08-23-2009, 03:34 PM	#9
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by photolady T Now I have one more question. How many of you use just the viewfinder and not the LCD screen. I'm asking because the only digital I have is the one I mentioned, that Nikon and it only has the LCD screen. I alternate between p&s and the K20d. On the p&s I always use the LCD (no other choice) but I never use the LCD on the K20d for framing (aka "Live View"). I always use the viewfinder, or just point in the general direction and hope. Depends on the situation... LCD is useful for checking shots/histograms after capture.

08-23-2009, 03:39 PM	#10
GerryL Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: CA Posts: 2,731	It shouldn't bother you to go from film to digital or FF to one with a crop factor of 1.5. It is really of no issue as whatever you see on the viewfinder, you will be able to capture. It is much like in film that whatever you see on your viewfinder, you will be able to capture. That is why I don't know what the big deal is about the FF. I understand it a bit 'coz some people can't get satisfied and would much rather complain about the equipment than just enjoy the images they make or the skill they have. Some of them are always blaming the equipment.

08-23-2009, 04:49 PM	#11
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by photolady Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame? My best advise regarding "crop factor" or APS-C vs FF is FORGET ABOUT IT! If you aren't getting as much in the frame as you want, use a shorter lens. If you see too much or want your subject bigger, use a longer one. Relax. It's about the image, not about numbers marked on a lens barrel.

08-23-2009, 05:06 PM	#12
indytax Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 312	Originally posted by Parallax My best advise regarding "crop factor" or APS-C vs FF is FORGET ABOUT IT! If you aren't getting as much in the frame as you want, use a shorter lens. If you see too much or want your subject bigger, use a longer one. Relax. It's about the image, not about numbers marked on a lens barrel. This is exactly correct and is excellent advice. It's similar as when using a 645 or 67: the same 50mm lens doesn't have the same field of view and is actually a wide angle on medium format because the film size is bigger. There is no correct FOV, only ones that give more desirable qualities for certain applications. The simple truth is that the APS-C format is perfectly fine for nearly all of our uses.

08-23-2009, 09:38 PM	#13
SelrahCharleS Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 935	Originally posted by photolady I've decided to save my money and buy a K20D I saw lately for only $699 brand new. That's not a bad price, but I assume you are in the US? B&H Photo has them cheaper. Also check out this recent thread where you can use Bing cashback to your advantage. The K20D should be an excellent choice. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/70828-k20d-body-on...-cashback.html

08-24-2009, 09:52 AM	#14
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	One a DSLR, the viewfinder is what you use. Only a couple of models support "liveview", and it really isn't for full tiem use - more for special occasions. It's the other way around on smaller P&S digitals, true, but with a DSLR, they go to the trouble of putting a mirror in there, and it's expected you'll be taking advantage of it.

08-24-2009, 11:54 AM	#15
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	Originally posted by photolady Now what does this mean for digital shooting, "the sensor is smaller than the 35mm frame. The image is cropped." Or is it going to matter to me that it's not full frame? It means that with APS-C, you get tunnel vision. But you can get used to it. To say however that this doesn't matter is - in my opinion - strange.