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05-18-2007, 10:21 PM   #16
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Why don't we just prove that there's little shutter lag by getting out there and shooting a few action shots?

IMO, one shoud do a few more tests to guarantee decent accuracy here:

-Response time with no lens (watch the dust!)
-Response time with a MF lens
-Response time with an AF lens using MF mode on the camera
-Response time with an [IF], fast-focusing AF lens such as the FA 85/1.4. (in both AF.C and AF.S)
-Response time with any other AF lens (in both AF.C and AF.S)

And then compare the results... Remember, no measurement is 100% accurate, and what if the K10D's halfway/AF button needs to be pressed farther down than that of the K100D? Wouldn't that throw everything off?

From my practical experience, here's the response time tree: K10D>K100D=DS>D

Just my $0.02...


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05-18-2007, 10:45 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Read more negative stuff and patronize your blog?

No thanks; I'll pass.

What I don't understand is why you continue to use brand x of camera when all you can apparently do is spend your time attempting to tell others of what you perceive to be its' shortcomings. Why not just move on to a superior brand y camera and abandon we poor fools using such an obviously inferior instrument?
05-18-2007, 11:09 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mo Quote
Seriously, why would you go complaining so much instead of actually using the camera and shooting some photos?
Mo, seriously, why when there are many responders who are accusing that I am being "complaining" would really make even YOU are thinking me of "complaining"?

DO read my opening post and my linked blog post, where and when I have a "complaint" on the K10D or any other Pentax DSLRs?

The message contained in this post and my new blog entry is merely an investigation into the case, by quoting, summing up but not discussing the Imaging Resource results, which can be more objective and factual somehow, unlike personal "feelings".

I do intentionally leave it *open* and emphasize that I share the information and "judge yourself". But unfortunately, I'm still being accused of "always complaining"!(?)

Frankly, I'm somehow upset, just because it's YOU. For other average Joes, I can understand!

QuoteQuote:
One shoud do a few more tests to guarantee decent accuracy here:

-Response time with no lens (watch the dust!)
-Response time with a MF lens
-Response time with an AF lens using MF mode on the camera
-Response time with an [IF], fast-focusing AF lens such as the FA 85/1.4. (in both AF.C and AF.S)
-Response time with any other AF lens (in both AF.C and AF.S)

And then compare the results... Remember, no measurement is 100% accurate, and what if the K10D's halfway/AF button needs to be pressed farther down than that of the K100D? Wouldn't that throw everything off?
Their tests represent *most* of the *practical* shooting cases. Of course, it's not exhaustive. E.g., I did the AF and system time lag test with "one-go" for my K100D, i.e., to press the shutter release button until the shutter fires and measures both timings. Of course, the AF speeds is meaningful to compare with the same lens and I fixed the object distance plus the starting point of the lens, on different bodies:-

RiceHigh's Pentax K100D Full Review

As for the possible errors incurred by the testing methodology, I don't know exactly as I am not the one who carried out the tests.

But I just wish to amend that I had checked against those figures with the authorative Japanese CAPA published test reports and found that both are agreeing in general sense (just before I wrote my new blog article). The CAPA author who writes the review is a famous one who is also one of the main editors of DC Watch Impress (ƒfƒWƒJƒWatch Title Page). I don't know his name in English though.

The CAPA report says that the time lag of the EOS 5D is 78ms, which is exactly the same figure measured by the IR. They measured the timing with a light detection setup for measuring when the flash of the DSLR is triggered (which means that the first shutter curtain has just been up for starting the exposure, the author says). And, most importantly, the starting trigger is electrically connect to the cable switch, so the error cause you've suspected about the release button is non-existent and the testing method by CAPA is very accurate at least, as I can see.

Whilst the IR's lab setup has not been disclosed, I think it should be very similar and both are to be accurate enough (IR claims that to be of "the resolution of 0.001 second). For other figures of the 30D, 400D, D80 etc. are indeed very close enough, although not exactly matched (the errors are within just a few milliseconds). The CAPA measured only one figure for the time lag, though, i.e. the true system time lag with prefocused. However, they also measured the viewfinder blackout time, which is valuable, I think.

QuoteQuote:
From my practical experience, here's the response time tree: K10D>K100D=DS>D
So, again, it is back to "feeling". But then even we have to compare the figures, your above practical experience is valid, but only for the "Prefocused" shutter lag timing, only.
05-19-2007, 12:31 AM   #19
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We all have different needs, and for me the lag is not a problem. I bet the "long" time is a cost we have to pay for the SR function. Even when not activated it has to move and stabilize the sensor before opening the shutter. And Ricehigh, keep up the work, I like to know my camera even if it's not always the best there is.

05-19-2007, 12:34 AM   #20
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"The Elephant in the Room"

QuoteOriginally posted by Rick Quote
What I don't understand is why you continue to use brand x of camera when all you can apparently do is spend your time attempting to tell others of what you perceive to be its' shortcomings. Why not just move on to a superior brand y camera and abandon we poor fools using such an obviously inferior instrument?
I can't see your logic, if any, really.

When I tell about particular shortcomings or reported issues of Pentax DSLRs and lenses etc., it does NOT mean there exist another totally superior brand as you pals suppose.

Just think about it: somethings are wrong or inadequate does NOT necessary mean there is no good things of a system, or, a brand.

If Pentax really sucks in *every* aspect, I'm sure I shall do what you say immediately, i.e., jump ship. Yet fortunately, it's not.

To name a few examples, Pentax still has excellence in:-

1. Superior SMC coatings and flare controls;

2. More natural tone curve and image reproduction in general, see:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: An Interesting "Unfair" Comparison: 5D Vs K100D

3. Superior Optics (although newer Pentax lenses are not as best or even has strange colour reproduction):-

RiceHigh's Subjective Ratings on Pentax Lenses on Pentax DSLRs

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Unfavourable Colour Response of Quite Some Recent Pentax Lenses

4. Good skin tone reproduction than Canon, although IMHO the K10D is more Canon like which I don't like;

5. More reasonable pricing for lenses. Canon's better lenses' pricing is so high to be ridiculous, e.g. the EF 85/1.2 is triple the price of the as good but better coated FA*85/1.4 (which has been discontinued anyway)!

.. and so on.

Okay, now that the case is that I just cannot agree anymore for the attitude of "Pentax does no wrong" and probably in many's heart that "just because I have chosen the brand". It's just like "the elephant in the room", people try to avoid see anything they don't want others to mention and at the same time will stop others to talk about it too, very unfortunately, I'm afraid.

Last but not least, as for some shortcomings of the Pentax DSLR bodies, it *was* actually not existent for the MZ cameras, say, metering inaccuarcy and the lack of support for K/M lenses, just think about it..
05-19-2007, 12:41 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
We all have different needs, and for me the lag is not a problem. I bet the "long" time is a cost we have to pay for the SR function. Even when not activated it has to move and stabilize the sensor before opening the shutter.
Don't know here is it's SR. But the K100D is quicker anyway. But then the SR of K100 is not as effective as the K10's, btw.

QuoteQuote:
And Ricehigh, keep up the work, I like to know my camera even if it's not always the best there is.
Thanks, I shall continue on my way of doing it! :-)
05-19-2007, 05:30 PM   #22
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Dang shutter lag:-(.
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05-19-2007, 06:21 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
We all have different needs, and for me the lag is not a problem. I bet the "long" time is a cost we have to pay for the SR function. Even when not activated it has to move and stabilize the sensor before opening the shutter.
Maybe.
Interesting: With the K10D there is about half a second from half pressing the release button until the SR symbol lits up in the lower left corner of the viewfinder. Is the shutter lag dependent of this?

My question is: Is the shutter lag different when having had the release button half pressed for a while from what it is if you just press it (assuming everything is set to manual and the camera doesn't have to think or adjust anything)?

05-19-2007, 07:51 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Mo, seriously, why when there are many responders who are accusing that I am being "complaining" would really make even YOU are thinking me of "complaining"?

DO read my opening post and my linked blog post, where and when I have a "complaint" on the K10D or any other Pentax DSLRs?

The message contained in this post and my new blog entry is merely an investigation into the case, by quoting, summing up but not discussing the Imaging Resource results, which can be more objective and factual somehow, unlike personal "feelings".

I do intentionally leave it *open* and emphasize that I share the information and "judge yourself". But unfortunately, I'm still being accused of "always complaining"!(?)

Frankly, I'm somehow upset, just because it's YOU. For other average Joes, I can understand!

So, again, it is back to "feeling". But then even we have to compare the figures, your above practical experience is valid, but only for the "Prefocused" shutter lag timing, only.
Despite your good intentions and conclusions about the camera, it looks like we constantly see negative replies in threads like these. I'm fine with your posts and findings as long as replies here don't get out of hand- and unfortunately I can't control that. I suppose that my original post came out- check it out now to see what I was really getting at

I've seen many negative threads about the K10D (that's still fine), but from my point of view, it's a great camera- definitely a very big step up from the other Pentax DSLRs (except that it lacks a TTL sensor). I'm sure it could be better, but doesn't it deserve to ge more praise than criticism?

This time around, I felt I'd also step in and share my opinion on what I think the figures that these people are providing really mean. I'm doing exactly what you described above: "judging" the information myself. Most of the latter part of my post was directed at those who actually do the tests. The point here is that it's practically impossible to run a fully accurate test on something as minute as shutter speed lag. So many variables need to be kept constant that the tests could very well end up being unreliable...

Things such as the person who operates the camera, the lens type, the AF mode, the number of AF points being used, and even trivial things like battery voltage could completely throw off the results. Because of this, every user will find the camera different and will then judge it accordingly. Therefore, the general statement, "The K10D has long shutter lag," cannot be made, IMO. From what I'm reading in the figures, the CAPA measurements do seem reliable, but they don't say all that much, do they? Every camera has a different array of features and options, so we can't just compare the numbers. We need a little more than that, IMO.

And on a completely separate note, how on earth can the K10D be slower than the D in the full test (given that SR is off)? It's got improved software and improved hardware...something must be off.

Regards,

Adam

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05-19-2007, 10:56 PM   #25
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Ok...I am a noob K10D owner coming off of 25+ years of Nikon.

I personally don't see an issue with shutter lag on the K10D....but as for focus lock...It is far slower then my 15+ year old Nikon F4s.

I bought the K10D for the Pentax glass...and the type of shooting I am doing with it does not require a fast focus.

But still....
05-19-2007, 11:07 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
So what? You seem to be trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Contrary to your claims, the differences between the highest and lowest time measurements in that chart (roughly a tenth of a second) would be insignificant, virtually imperceptible, in the real world. The total sound from the tap of a pencil point on a desk is likely longer than that difference. And the K10D falls somewhere in the middle of those measurements (disputing your "K10D Really Sluggish" premise), meaning any difference between it and any one of the other cameras would be even less significant or perceptible.

QuoteQuote:
This time, I just try to explain what the Imaging Resource is measurbating
An obsession with masturbation perhaps? You really should limit those thoughts to private moments with yourself.

stewart
05-20-2007, 12:30 AM   #27
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Just what is being measured here?

Once the AF system has locked and SR has locked the actions of the camera take the same time - no matter what mode the device is in. The time it takes the mirror to move into the locked position and the first curtain of the shutter begins to move is constant - whether the system is in full P mode, X mode or bulb. The mirror also returns to its viewing position in the same time - regardless of what mode the camera is set.

If what you are measuring is AF time/SR time, then state it as such. Once the shutter is tripped (mirror moves and curtain moves) there is no "lag" or what ever that means. Even the guy who started this whole idea of "shutter lag" admitted that the K10D "sounded like there was a lag" on a camera in a shop - he did not even own a K10D at the time and fired it in a photo shop.

There is no "shutter lag" - I don't care about AF time since I have de-coupled the AF from the shutter release - and I turn SR off when I am shooting above 1/100 of a second. ---- I win --- my K10D is faster than yours --- because it "sounds" that way.

Enough with the pseudo babble.

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05-20-2007, 04:22 AM   #28
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My question is this, if hte K10D has a shutter lag that is slower than the D80 or 30D, what are you going to do about it RH? What is the point to this whole research and analisys that you are doing? Are you going to go to Pentax with your findings or are you going to move to another camera manufacturer?
05-20-2007, 08:00 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonas B Quote
Maybe.
Interesting: With the K10D there is about half a second from half pressing the release button until the SR symbol lits up in the lower left corner of the viewfinder. Is the shutter lag dependent of this?
I did think the same as you do long ago and suspected that if the SR would make the time lag longer. But until I did my measurbation with my K100D, to my surprise, it was verified that the activation of SR did not affect the system lag time, but only made AF more sluggish:-

RiceHigh's Pentax K100D Full Review

I'm not sure if this applies to the K10D, though. But as for th lit up of the SR symbol in the finder display and the delay time of it, both the K100D and the K10D are the same, I can tell.

QuoteQuote:
My question is: Is the shutter lag different when having had the release button half pressed for a while from what it is if you just press it (assuming everything is set to manual and the camera doesn't have to think or adjust anything)?
According to the Imaging Resource test on the K10D, MF won't help to shorten the time lag, but only "prefocused" will help. It seems that *only* "prefocused" will stop the "camera to think or adjust anything".
05-20-2007, 08:19 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I did think the same as you do long ago and suspected that if the SR would make the time lag longer. But until I did my measurbation with my K100D, to my surprise, it was verified that the activation of SR did not affect the system lag time, but only made AF more sluggish:-

I'm not sure if this applies to the K10D, though. But as for th lit up of the SR symbol in the finder display and the delay time of it, both the K100D and the K10D are the same, I can tell.

According to the Imaging Resource test on the K10D, MF won't help to shorten the time lag, but only "prefocused" will help. It seems that *only* "prefocused" will stop the "camera to think or adjust anything".
You misunderstood my question. I am not talking about the time it takes for the SR symbol to get lit, but rather if the shutter lag is the same when one has the SR turned on but don't care about the symbol in the viewfinder as it is when having half pressed the shutter release for some time (maybe several seconds) before pressing it.

The last paragraph about MF and "prefocused" doesn't make sense to me at all. If Imaging Resource finds that MF will give worse shutter lag than AF with the lens "prefocused" they are plain wrong. That single thing make me wonder about their test. Are they reliable at all?
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