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05-20-2007, 08:51 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mo Quote
Despite your good intentions and conclusions about the camera, it looks like we constantly see negative replies in threads like these. I'm fine with your posts and findings as long as replies here don't get out of hand- and unfortunately I can't control that. I suppose that my original post came out- check it out now to see what I was really getting at
That's Life! Human reactions are sometimes predictable but not controllable! ;-)

QuoteQuote:
I've seen many negative threads about the K10D (that's still fine), but from my point of view, it's a great camera- definitely a very big step up from the other Pentax DSLRs (except that it lacks a TTL sensor). I'm sure it could be better, but doesn't it deserve to ge more praise than criticism?
I do believe it's a camera which Pentax has shown much of their sincerity in making it and I do put my hat off to Pentax for their efforts spent.

Regarding praises, I think the K10D has earned the praises for what it worths. It is now the double award winners of the TIPA and Japanese Grand Prix as well. However, it doesn't mean that the K10D doesn't have its shortcomings, which are indeed still quite a number and there are surely much room for improvement. These problems and bugs are highly desired to be removed in the coming models and that's why you see I have mentioned about these by collecting feedbacks and report those. Of course, I have done my research and tried my best to filter out all those non-substantial claims, which might be caused by user errors alone.

QuoteQuote:
This time around, I felt I'd also step in and share my opinion on what I think the figures that these people are providing really mean. I'm doing exactly what you described above: "judging" the
information myself. Most of the latter part of my post was directed at those who actually do the tests. The point here is that it's practically impossible to run a fully accurate test on something as minute as shutter speed lag. So many variables need to be kept constant that the tests could very well end up being unreliable...
Agreed. But as for experienced measurbators and reviewers like those at DPR or Imaging Resource, I do believe that they know well how these tests should be carried out and minimise those variables you've mentioned.

QuoteQuote:
Things such as the person who operates the camera, the lens type, the AF mode, the number of AF points being used, and even trivial things like battery voltage could completely throw off the results.
Person who operates the camera should not affect the timing as the measurements should be made with machines. Just look at the CAPA tests I mentioned last time, cable switch was used instead of shutter release button to fire the shot and this cable switch is linked to an optical sensor to measure the firing of 1st curtain flash which is exactly the instant time of exposure, unless the flash sync is off. Of course, the preflash of the flash is ignored.

Regarding the AF points enabled, I bet they should choose the central point. But then this should not affect the "prefocused" time lag nor MF time lag. At least for Pentax, in MF mode, the "AF" point will be limited to the central one only. This is true for all Pentax DSLRs.

As for battery voltage, I agree that there is a range. But I don't believe that that will affect the results in large magnitude and the variation should be small. At least for what I measured the time lag for the *ist DS, my results agree very much with the CAPA and disagreement is in only two milliseconds and then the CAPA agrees with the IR's ones with only disagreement in milliseconds, again.

QuoteQuote:
Because of this, every user will find the camera different and will then judge it accordingly. Therefore, the general statement, "The K10D has long shutter lag," cannot be made, IMO.
That's what I hinted at my OP too! ;-)

QuoteQuote:
From what I'm reading in the figures, the CAPA measurements do seem reliable, but they don't say all that much, do they? Every camera has a different array of features and options, so we can't just compare the numbers. We need a little more than that, IMO.
As commented above. Again, I think those expert measurbators know very well for what they are doing and should do.

QuoteQuote:
And on a completely separate note, how on earth can the K10D be slower than the D in the full test (given that SR is off)? It's got improved software and improved hardware...something must be off.
That's easily explainable. The *ist D was selling at US$1,800 when first marketed and the K10D was only sold at less than $900. There is indeed no miracle on Earth, especially when the feature set of the K10D is so rich and the published specs are so strong. They must have cut some corners around, no doubt.

What I can tell the mirror and shutter mechanism of the *ist D is the same gene as the MZ-S - but just a slower and a more sluggish version. As for other *ist and the Ks, the mechanism are completely different. Just hear the sounds and compare and we shall know.

As for the soft touch "two way" shutter release button of the MZ-S, it is stil unique for *all* Pentax AF SLRs and DSLRs - it is of one way only with gradually increased force resistance - very responsive and sensitive to the finger action afterall.

Finally, whilst I do actually agree that most DSLRs do satisfy most of typical users' needs. However, it's always interesting to see the cameras are actually engineered and created differently. And in some rare occasions or for special applications, I do believe the different superior performance will show its value.

05-20-2007, 09:09 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
What I can tell the mirror and shutter mechanism of the *ist D is the same gene as the MZ-S - but just a slower and a more sluggish version. As for other *ist and the Ks, the mechanism are completely different. Just hear the sounds and compare and we shall know.
Yes- the mirror in the D is a full-frame mirror, so I guess at the time they werestill projecting a full-frame DSLR. They've obviously let the idea go, however, seeing that all the new SLRs have smaller mirrors.

I bet the tested K10D had SR on for that particular test, though. It's definitely slower...

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05-20-2007, 10:08 PM   #33
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FWIW, the MZ-S is faster than the K10D, but then the PZ-1P is faster than both of them-Yes I have all three. Put the PZ motor in a digital SLR and it will be very fast, and very big.

Tom
05-20-2007, 10:17 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Regarding praises, I think the K10D has earned the praises for what it worths. (snip) However, it doesn't mean that the K10D doesn't have its shortcomings, (snip) These problems and bugs (snip) I have done my research (snip)

I'm going to try one more time, more clearly this time. As you should know from your "research," shutter lag is the total time required to charge the CCD, capture the image, and transmit captured data afterwards to other camera circuitry for processing and storage (not the same as later JPEG or RAW file transfers which impact camera burst rates).

Shutter lag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The measurements in your chart don't specify what portion of those times are allocated towards charging the CCD, image capture, and/or data transfer afterwards. Charging the CCD, an electrical process, is near instantaneous (milliseconds or less). Image capture is, at the very least, quicker than the fastest shutter speed of the camera (1/4,000 sec). The remainder of that time (the vast majority of time described as shutter lag) is the transfer of data afterwards, which has been accounted for in the roughly 3.3 tenths of a second between exposures of the K10D's 3 fps exposure rate.

In other words, any shutter lag during the period between the instant the button is pressed and the image is captured, which is what you seem to be complaining about, is a matter of milliseconds (CCD charging and image capture), not the entire shutter lag period which includes data transfer afterwards.

It is virtually impossible for anyone, even you, to discern a difference between events measured in milliseconds. The K10D may indeed have a few "shortcomings," as you say, but the nonsense here and on your blog about a shutter lag between the instant the button is pressed and the image is captured is most certainly not one of them.

stewart

05-20-2007, 10:45 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonas B Quote
You misunderstood my question. I am not talking about the time it takes for the SR symbol to get lit, but rather if the shutter lag is the same when one has the SR turned on but don't care about the symbol in the viewfinder as it is when having half pressed the shutter release for some time (maybe several seconds) before pressing it.
Don't get me wrong, of course I know what you're talking about and of course to measure the time lag is nothing related to the time the the SR symbol to get displayed.

What we are interested if the on or off of the SR will affect the time lag, which I have measured for the K100D in my review, for both.

QuoteQuote:
The last paragraph about MF and "prefocused" doesn't make sense to me at all. If Imaging Resource finds that MF will give worse shutter lag than AF with the lens "prefocused" they are plain wrong. That single thing make me wonder about their test. Are they reliable at all?
Not really and I don't agree here. The IR figures make much sense to me. Prefocused with single AF and hold will virtually ignore any factors for the AF system to measure and calculate anything further, whereas in MF mode, the system is still measuring the focusing point for the focusing indication to assist the MF, so additional processing time is normal.
05-20-2007, 10:51 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ennacac Quote
FWIW, the MZ-S is faster than the K10D, but then the PZ-1P is faster than both of them-Yes I have all three. Put the PZ motor in a digital SLR and it will be very fast, and very big.

Tom
Yes, tom, I agree with you this time. The Z-1p is the fastest amongst, but, the Z-1p's mirror is the most vigorous and thus pics are more easy to be blurred by the vigorous camera shake.

All in all, I think the MZ-S has the best compromise here.
05-20-2007, 10:54 PM   #37
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The preparation time you suggested before the CCD is ready has indeed been included when the system time lag is measured, i.e., when the 1st shutter curtain is fully opened, exposure happens.

As for the processing time required for processing of the image which is to be taken place thereafter, it's something not relevant to the system time lag.

QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
I'm going to try one more time, more clearly this time. As you should know from your "research," shutter lag is the total time required to charge the CCD, capture the image, and transmit captured data afterwards to other camera circuitry for processing and storage (not the same as later JPEG or RAW file transfers which impact camera burst rates).

Shutter lag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The measurements in your chart don't specify what portion of those times are allocated towards charging the CCD, image capture, and/or data transfer afterwards. Charging the CCD, an electrical process, is near instantaneous (milliseconds or less). Image capture is, at the very least, quicker than the fastest shutter speed of the camera (1/4,000 sec). The remainder of that time (the vast majority of time described as shutter lag) is the transfer of data afterwards, which has been accounted for in the roughly 3.3 tenths of a second between exposures of the K10D's 3 fps exposure rate.

In other words, any shutter lag during the period between the instant the button is pressed and the image is captured, which is what you seem to be complaining about, is a matter of milliseconds (CCD charging and image capture), not the entire shutter lag period which includes data transfer afterwards.

It is virtually impossible for anyone, even you, to discern a difference between events measured in milliseconds. The K10D may indeed have a few "shortcomings," as you say, but the nonsense here and on your blog about a shutter lag between the instant the button is pressed and the image is captured is most certainly not one of them.

stewart
05-20-2007, 11:00 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mo Quote
Yes- the mirror in the D is a full-frame mirror, so I guess at the time they werestill projecting a full-frame DSLR. They've obviously let the idea go, however, seeing that all the new SLRs have smaller mirrors.
What I meant the difference is not about the size of the mirror, but the driving and damping mechanism of the mirror and the "crispness" of the shutter.

QuoteQuote:
I bet the tested K10D had SR on for that particular test, though. It's definitely slower...
I don't know if it is "definitely". At least for what I measured for my K100D, SR on or off did NOT affect the measured *system time lag* values, i.e., they are the same at 143ms. However, the AF speed is slowed down when SR is activated and more huntings were found, which was something out of my prediction before the measurement:-

RiceHigh's Pentax K100D Full Review

05-20-2007, 11:31 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Don't get me wrong, of course I know what you're talking about and of course to measure the time lag is nothing related to the time the the SR symbol to get displayed.

What we are interested if the on or off of the SR will affect the time lag, which I have measured for the K100D in my review, for both.
Now you misunderstood me again. I don't know how to explain it better. Maybe we can just leave it.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Not really and I don't agree here. The IR figures make much sense to me. Prefocused with single AF and hold will virtually ignore any factors for the AF system to measure and calculate anything further, whereas in MF mode, the system is still measuring the focusing point for the focusing indication to assist the MF, so additional processing time is normal.
Is that so? Even in AF-C mode? I'm usually pretty sensitive to this sort of things but I have to admit I never really noticed any difference here. Maybe there is one, also in AF-C mode which is the only AF mode I use.
05-21-2007, 05:56 AM   #40
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You gonna answer my question?
05-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
...something not relevant to the system time lag.
You start a thread with "shutter lag" in the title, but now want to talk about "system lag time." This is quickly turning into a shell game of switching topics whenever it suits your position. For everyone's benefit, perhaps you should explain, in detail, exactly what you're talking about. Until then, this discussion serves no purpose other then a medium for your ongoing vague assaults on the K10D - something I will not continue to be a part of.

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05-21-2007, 06:22 PM   #42
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My point exactly - as in my previous posts on this subject -- RH does not have a clue as to what he means - let alone what shutter lag really means.

I will repeat myself --- Once the mirror starts to move during an exposure to the time it locks in the up position and the first curtain of the shutter moves - is constant. RH --- that means that time does not vary - nada - no difference -- get it? Your term “shutter lag” does not exist - once the contact is made to trip the shutter everything is under the control of the electro/mechanical mechanism of the camera.

If what you are talking about is the amount of time it takes the camera to determine exposure, focus and shake reduction --- that is not shutter lag - that is acquisition time.

Good heavens man - at least try to understand what you are talking about - use the correct terms for heavens sake. Or just go away.

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05-21-2007, 07:05 PM   #43
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Folks, the terms "shutter lag" and "system time lag" are widely used and it is generally accepted and referred to the same thing for a DSLR or SLR.

Just Google the terms, for the phrase "shutter lag" or "system time lag", then one can easily find the returns for what people are talking about and what are the terms actually meant.

Returns by Googling "K10D Shutter Lag":-

Pentax K10D Digital Camera Perform - Full Review - The Imaging Resource!

DCRP Review: Pentax K10D

Pentax Forum: DL shutter lag, are they all so bad? - photo.net

Pentax K10D SLR, Digital Camera Kit with Pentax SMCP-DA 18-55mm Lens

Returns by Googling "System Time Lag" and "PopPhoto":

Contax NX Lab Results - - PopPhotoDecember 2002

Sigma Test Results - - PopPhotoDecember 2002

Hope this helps.
05-21-2007, 08:01 PM   #44
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I don't understand what all this fuss is about? Using the figures RH quoted from image resources, the k10d in 'full AF' is on par with the D80 and 30d. The only camera in its class with a difference is the A100 which is 0.05s behind the pack..

So whats the big deal?
05-21-2007, 11:39 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Folks, the terms "shutter lag" and "system time lag" are widely used and it is generally accepted and referred to the same thing for a DSLR or SLR.
Common usage doesn't cut it, RiceHigh. You've presented facts, figures, charts, opinions, and conclusions, on a specific issue while being overly vague about what that issue fully encompasses. I'm not the only one expressing confusion over this. You claim, over on your blog (under "Why This Blog?"), that people like yourself (enthusiasts who create non-commercial websites or blogs) are the true experts, so at least present your arguments in a somewhat expert manner without vaguenesses and ambiguities.

stewart
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