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05-21-2007, 11:42 PM   #46
PDL
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Enough - already

From Wikipedia
Shutter lag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shutter Lag
"This is a common problem in the photography of fast-moving objects, and is usually solved by pressing the button with forethought" (my highlight)
OMG - now we have to think? anticipate, previsualize? dare I say --- know what we are doing?

Down further in the brief article.
"Recent improvements in technology, however, such as the speed, bandwidth and power consumption of processor chips and memory, as well as CCD technology, have made shutter lag less of a problem. As of the writing of this article in 2006, however, these advancements have been limited mostly to professional, "prosumer," and high-end consumer-grade digital cameras." (my highlight)
Or else are you trying to tell us that the K10D (which you do not own) is not a professional, "prosumer" or high-end camera.

As for taking into account the entire AF, SR and exposure - mirror up/shutter release as the "lag". I do not have that issue with my K10D. I have decoupled the AF from the shutter button (only use the AF button or manual) and I lock the exposure - then compose and shoot. No Lag ------- I WIN --------

When I shoot sports or something that is fast moving - I usually use my manual 300mm mid 70's Vivitar TX mount lens. Guess what - no shutter lag - just put the camera in burst mode - pre-focus where I expect the action - push the green button and blast away. ------- I WIN AGAIN --------

Just learn how to use your camera and stop complaining.

PDL - last post - I promise - can we request this thing be locked - Beating dead horses is getting pretty ho-hum


Last edited by PDL; 05-21-2007 at 11:44 PM. Reason: spelling
05-21-2007, 11:55 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
I don't understand what all this fuss is about?
As for myself, the fuss is about ongoing efforts (here and elsewhere) to present shutter lag in the K10D as sluggish, a shortcoming, a problem, and so on. I don't believe that to be at all true. Regardless, I've had my say and don't intend to add more, so the fuss is over at this point as far as I'm concerned.

stewart
05-22-2007, 01:33 AM   #48
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I think the Wiki article is outdated regarding the shutter lag time of P&S as quite some latest models, like those offers from Fuji and Casio claimed that the shutter lag is of only 0.01 second (10ms).

Putting aside the error above, I don't see there is any conflict in Wiki's explanation to the "shutter lag" of cameras with what people are generally referring to for the meaning of the "shutter lag", including the Imaging Resource, PopPhoto and mine (which is all identical).

BTW, I think you've made a very good and valid point (IMHO) for how it maybe possible to (quite significantly) shorten the shutter lag, that is, to dis-link the shutter release button with the AF via one of the custom function, which maybe also unique for Pentax DSLRs.

By disconnect the linkage between the two may virtually disable the AF system completely so that the time lag can be kept as a minimum, thus, the same as the measured "Prefocused" timing which is simply purely the *net* system time lag of the camera. E.g., save 0.147 second for single AF and 0.076 for continous AF *theoretically*. I am not sure if this will work for MF though as I need to check if the MF focus indication will be disabled altogether when this custom function is selected.

However, practically, I don't know if this would work out for saving some time or not as we need to use two fingers to do the AF and to release the shutter - which eventually more time may even be involved!

But anyway, I understand and appreciate your shared point and solution (and I am always glad to hear and learn, as long as some sensible points are made). I guess your method works well as long as the AF can be done in advance but not required just right before the exposure..

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
From Wikipedia
Shutter lag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Shutter Lag
"This is a common problem in the photography of fast-moving objects, and is usually solved by pressing the button with forethought" (my highlight)
OMG - now we have to think? anticipate, previsualize? dare I say --- know what we are doing?

Down further in the brief article.
"Recent improvements in technology, however, such as the speed, bandwidth and power consumption of processor chips and memory, as well as CCD technology, have made shutter lag less of a problem. As of the writing of this article in 2006, however, these advancements have been limited mostly to professional, "prosumer," and high-end consumer-grade digital cameras." (my highlight)
Or else are you trying to tell us that the K10D (which you do not own) is not a professional, "prosumer" or high-end camera.

As for taking into account the entire AF, SR and exposure - mirror up/shutter release as the "lag". I do not have that issue with my K10D. I have decoupled the AF from the shutter button (only use the AF button or manual) and I lock the exposure - then compose and shoot. No Lag ------- I WIN --------

When I shoot sports or something that is fast moving - I usually use my manual 300mm mid 70's Vivitar TX mount lens. Guess what - no shutter lag - just put the camera in burst mode - pre-focus where I expect the action - push the green button and blast away. ------- I WIN AGAIN --------

Just learn how to use your camera and stop complaining.

PDL - last post - I promise - can we request this thing be locked - Beating dead horses is getting pretty ho-hum
05-22-2007, 02:11 AM   #49
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In the quotes below RH is replying to PDL, not to me. I'm just jumping in as I feel like it.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote

BTW, I think you've made a very good and valid point (IMHO) for how it maybe possible to (quite significantly) shorten the shutter lag, that is, to dis-link the shutter release button with the AF via one of the custom function, which maybe also unique for Pentax DSLRs.
Not unique at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
By disconnect the linkage between the two may virtually disable the AF system completely so that the time lag can be kept as a minimum, thus, the same as the measured "Prefocused" timing which is simply purely the *net* system time lag of the camera. E.g., save 0.147 second for single AF and 0.076 for continous AF *theoretically*. I am not sure if this will work for MF though as I need to check if the MF focus indication will be disabled altogether when this custom function is selected.
With the K10D the MF focusing indicator is disabled with the setting described by PDL.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
However, practically, I don't know if this would work out for saving some time or not as we need to use two fingers to do the AF and to release the shutter - which eventually more time may even be involved!

But anyway, I understand and appreciate your shared point and solution (and I am always glad to hear and learn, as long as some sensible points are made). I guess your method works well as long as the AF can be done in advance but not required just right before the exposure..
It's not about saving time. It's about timing. Very different. Only by writing this I have lost more than I ever will "save" by shortening the shutter lag with a few milliseconds.

This timing is what I am thinking of when I wondered about possible differences when SR is tuned on but the symbol is not lit up, compared to when SR is turned on and I have half pressed the shutter for some time and hence have the green hand showing.

Within reasonable limits it's not about shutter lag, but about the timing that the photographer learns while using his/her equipment. With a very long shutter lag it's harder...

regards,

05-22-2007, 04:18 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
As for myself, the fuss is about ongoing efforts (here and elsewhere) to present shutter lag in the K10D as sluggish, a shortcoming, a problem, and so on. I don't believe that to be at all true. Regardless, I've had my say and don't intend to add more, so the fuss is over at this point as far as I'm concerned.

stewart
Yes I agree, I guess that is what I meant by "what is the fuss" as it is sitting comfortably beside the other models in its price bracket...
05-22-2007, 06:19 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
Yes I agree, I guess that is what I meant by "what is the fuss" as it is sitting comfortably beside the other models in its price bracket...
The "fuss" seems to be people saying "la la la we don't want to see numbers or let anyone else talk about them la la la". It's worthwhile to have this data and to know how it compares to other cameras, and just because the Pentax cameras aren't at the very top of the list doesn't mean there's a problem either with the camera or with posting the numbers.

For what it's worth, I find that subjectively my K100D is less responsive in capturing the moment than my wife's compact Fuji F31fd (both with the shutter half-pressed). I don't mean time to focus or shot to shot, but just how it reacts when capturing a fleeting expression like a smile. This is probably due to the SR -- I haven't tested it in any controlled way -- but may be due to other factors. (Y'know, there's a mirror that has to get out of the way, etc.) And it's also subjectively slower than my friend's Canon 30D which I borrow some times. (No surprise given the $1000 price difference.)

The K100D is still pretty fast, but it means I have to change how I'm anticipating when switching cameras -- the feel is different, and it does take some adjusting.

At the Museum of Science in Boston, there's a little game where you test your reaction time to a visual cue. Generally, that's around 0.2 seconds, give or take 0.05. There's a big difference between the camera adding a few percent to that time and almost doubling it. Being a bit slower doesn't mean it's a bad camera, but really does have an effect.
05-22-2007, 03:10 PM   #52
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The Longest Final Conclusion in History!!

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
Yes I agree, I guess that is what I meant by "what is the fuss" as it is sitting comfortably beside the other models in its price bracket...
I agree - "What is all the fuss about?".

Rice is a perennial K10D 'knocker' and selectively quotes out of context - I do not understand why...

I previously owned a Canon DSLR and the K10D response times feel much quicker to me and in the end that's what it is all about....

I look forward to Rice's next informative post!
05-22-2007, 10:39 PM   #53
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Didnt think so...

05-22-2007, 11:47 PM   #54
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OK - this is the last.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonas B Quote
With the K10D the MF focusing indicator is disabled with the setting described by PDL.
With the AF de-coupled from the shutter, the camera set to M, the focus mode set to manual (switch on the front of the body) and my old mid 70's Vivtar f5.6 TX - K mount lens. When I push the AF button on the back and manually focus - when the subject comes into focus the center AF point lighst up and the hexagon in the view finder lights up when the subject is in focus. I know what the f/stop will be (remember this lens does not have a A setting) and with DOF markings I have a good feel for whether or not I can get a good image. Once the "thing" is in focus (green hexagon is on and center focus point is on) I compose - push the green button and blast away.

Works great - on the *ist Ds and K10D.

I still win.

PDL
05-23-2007, 01:48 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonas B Quote
With the K10D the MF focusing indicator is disabled with the setting described by PDL.
QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
With the AF de-coupled from the shutter, the camera set to M, the focus mode set to manual (switch on the front of the body) and my old mid 70's Vivtar f5.6 TX - K mount lens. When I push the AF button on the back and manually focus - when the subject comes into focus the center AF point lighst up and the hexagon in the view finder lights up when the subject is in focus. I know what the f/stop will be (remember this lens does not have a A setting) and with DOF markings I have a good feel for whether or not I can get a good image. Once the "thing" is in focus (green hexagon is on and center focus point is on) I compose - push the green button and blast away.

Works great - on the *ist Ds and K10D.

I still win.

PDL
Yes, that's how it works. If you don't press the AF button on the back of the camera the focusing indicator is disabled. That's how I have my K10D set up. It's the most conveniant way to handle a mix of AF and MF (to me).

What are you winning all the time?
05-23-2007, 04:14 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonas B Quote
What are you winning all the time?
Good question, I wonder too! :-)
05-23-2007, 04:47 AM   #57
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You hit the nail on the head! Well put!!

Excellently put, mattdm! You have hit the nail on the head! My hat off!

QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
The "fuss" seems to be people saying "la la la we don't want to see numbers or let anyone else talk about them la la la". It's worthwhile to have this data and to know how it compares to other cameras, and just because the Pentax cameras aren't at the very top of the list doesn't mean there's a problem either with the camera or with posting the numbers.

For what it's worth, I find that subjectively my K100D is less responsive in capturing the moment than my wife's compact Fuji F31fd (both with the shutter half-pressed). I don't mean time to focus or shot to shot, but just how it reacts when capturing a fleeting expression like a smile. This is probably due to the SR -- I haven't tested it in any controlled way -- but may be due to other factors. (Y'know, there's a mirror that has to get out of the way, etc.) And it's also subjectively slower than my friend's Canon 30D which I borrow some times. (No surprise given the $1000 price difference.)

The K100D is still pretty fast, but it means I have to change how I'm anticipating when switching cameras -- the feel is different, and it does take some adjusting.

At the Museum of Science in Boston, there's a little game where you test your reaction time to a visual cue. Generally, that's around 0.2 seconds, give or take 0.05. There's a big difference between the camera adding a few percent to that time and almost doubling it. Being a bit slower doesn't mean it's a bad camera, but really does have an effect.
05-23-2007, 08:11 AM   #58
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I just win --- with a winner - the thread will end.

PDL
05-23-2007, 08:32 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
I just win --- with a winner - the thread will end.

PDL
May I be the first to congratulate the?!
04-16-2008, 12:00 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Ricehigh, pressing a button twice as fast as one can is NOT a test of ones reaction time.
QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I admit that it is NOT if *strictly* speaking. But what I'm suggesting to check something similar just for reference. At least, we know how quickly our fingers can move. :-)
Gimbal is completely right.

Pressing a button twice is ABSOLUTELY USELESS as a measure of reaction time. You can double-click a mouse in under 0.05s with a little practice.

Reaction time is a measure of your ability to react to an UNPREDICTABLE STIMULUS. With double-clicking, your brain basically sends two immediate, successive signals to tense your finger muscles. Whereas when you react to a stimulus, you first perceive some sensory input, which travels to your brain, which then sends a signal via your nervous system to your finger.
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