Final Conclusion about the K10D Shutter Lag Time

RiceHigh · 05-18-2007, 07:09 AM

Full Answers here (I hope):-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Is the K10D Really Sluggish in Shutter Lag?

This time, I just try to explain what the Imaging Resource is measurbating and quote and summarize the results. And then, you can judge and make up the conclusion by yourself!

Hope we can really come to a sensible conclusion this time, at least in the heart of oneself. Although different people can still have different views about the meaningfulness of the timings..

Bottom line: different users have different needs but don't tell again there is "no" difference or even "no time lag" :-)

davemdsn · 05-18-2007, 07:41 AM

I still don't see what you are complaining about. The Lag time on the K10D, with focus time is virtually identical to the D80. With pre-focus it is only 2/100 of a second slower. Although the 30D is faster in auto focus, the K10D is faster in manual focus, which means that the Canon focuses faster, but the actuall shutter lag performance is better in the K10D. Further proof that you can't be trusted to tell the truth.

klopus · 05-18-2007, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by davemdsn

I still don't see what you are complaining about. The Lag time on the K10D, with focus time is virtually identical to the D80. With pre-focus it is only 2/100 of a second slower. Although the 30D is faster in auto focus, the K10D is faster in manual focus, which means that the Canon focuses faster, but the actuall shutter lag performance is better in the K10D. Further proof that you can't be trusted to tell the truth.

I also at loss to understand his point except for usual implication of negativity. The only thing that somebody who's not negatively biased and obsessed like our friend RH can conclude from IR and similar DPR measurements is that K10D is pretty competitive in its class.

PeterAM · 05-18-2007, 08:19 AM

All I can say is, who cares?

Classvino · 05-18-2007, 09:20 AM

I think RiceHigh says it best :

The author has no responsibility of any kind on the accuracy or whatsoever on all the information and data provided here.

From his website.

BrendanPK · 05-18-2007, 10:02 AM

ok, when we start measuring time (other than for races) in tenths and hundrets and even thousandths of seconds can you really (in the real world) tell the difference?
The main difference is in AF speed not shutter lag time
I have had my K10D since 3 days after the west coast got theirs, I have not noticed a problem, it is faster than my older D's and esp than my DS so I am happy.
Sure it is no MKIII (I have handled one) but hey it also does not cost $4K
my 2cents

Gimbal · 05-18-2007, 12:15 PM

Ricehigh, pressing a button twice as fast as one can is NOT a test of ones reaction time.

Have to say that 0.181s is a bit slower than it feels, I wonder how they measure it. ( I'm not question it though.) A free falling object travels about 0.16meters in that time. A quick test with a mirror, pressing the shutter and dropping an object at the same time confirms it roughly. (Actually the test gave a little shorter time but then there was a human involved.)

Last edited by Gimbal; 05-18-2007 at 12:27 PM.

Ray Pulley · 05-18-2007, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

Full Answers here (I hope):-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Is the K10D Really Sluggish in Shutter Lag?

This time, I just try to explain what the Imaging Resource is measurbating and quote and summarize the results. And then, you can judge and make up the conclusion by yourself!

Hope we can really come to a sensible conclusion this time, at least in the heart of oneself. Although different people can still have different views about the meaningfulness of the timings..

Bottom line: different users have different needs but don't tell again there is "no" difference or even "no time lag" :-)

You could at least have had the decency to conduct your own tests instead of stealing someone else'e work for your so called "blog".

I wonder if Imaging Resources is aware of your use of their work and approves?

You are truly obsessed and should seek professional help.

Ray

RiceHigh · 05-18-2007, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by BrendanPK

ok, when we start measuring time (other than for races) in tenths and hundrets and even thousandths of seconds can you really (in the real world) tell the difference?

Yes and no, depends on the application and the speed of moving object.

Still, the shortest possible time lag is mostly desirable.

Quote:

The main difference is in AF speed not shutter lag time
I have had my K10D since 3 days after the west coast got theirs, I have not noticed a problem, it is faster than my older D's and esp than my DS so I am happy.

Not really. The Imaging Resource is not testing the AF speed at all. Their "Full AF" test is a mean to measure the system time lag in single AF mode and even that they have prefocused the object but released the shutter release first.

As for AF speed, we have no doubt that the K10D or the K100D is faster than the *ist DS or even the *ist D (which is the fastest *ist DSLR already), which I also tell others from time to time.

Quote:

Sure it is no MKIII (I have handled one) but hey it also does not cost $4K
my 2cents

Yes, agreed. So, we need to compare apple to apple, orange to orange. E.g., we should compare DSLR in the same price range and specifications. Just say we should compare the K10D to the D80 or 30D. And then the K100 to the D40 and so on (400D/XTi is something in between). BTW, it's always interesting to learn how those truly top pro models can perform, isn't it?

p.s. Brendan, congrats for having a new toy! Haven't seen you at the PhotoZone for long, why not go back there to see Klaus and our old friends? :-) Roland and I etc. still there! (Recently, the knowledgable Mr. Alan Chan from Canada is also here!)

pentaxographer · 05-18-2007, 07:28 PM

RiceHigh should post his information on this forum. He is just getting blog hits from the links. Same game on other forums always with the blog links. Just check the web counter on the blog.
Last time for me

davemdsn · 05-18-2007, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

Yes, agreed. So, we need to compare apple to apple, orange to orange. E.g., we should compare DSLR in the same price range and specifications. Just say we should compare the K10D to the D80 or 30D.

I did compare exactly those models, if you would bother to read. According to the source you quoted the K10D had almost the exact same shutter lag as the D80 and was faster than the 30D. Or were you ignoring those facts because they do not support your fantasy?

RiceHigh · 05-18-2007, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

Ricehigh, pressing a button twice as fast as one can is NOT a test of ones reaction time.

I admit that it is NOT if *strictly* speaking. But what I'm suggesting to check something similar just for reference. At least, we know how quickly our fingers can move. :-)

To do formal scentific measurement, we must have a steady moving object and set a line where when the object is moving pass thro it as we can see the moment, we press the shutter release button and then the displacement in the final test shot is measured. Having known the velocity of the moving object, the measurbator can then know the delayed time lag.

But then we are not psychologists to study human reaction times, are we? ;-) (Um, I'm only interested in measurbating DSLRs, you know ;-D)

Quote:

Have to say that 0.181s is a bit slower than it feels, I wonder how they measure it. ( I'm not question it though.) A free falling object travels about 0.16meters in that time. A quick test with a mirror, pressing the shutter and dropping an object at the same time confirms it roughly. (Actually the test gave a little shorter time but then there was a human involved.)

It's actually not very slow, but not fast as well when compared to the whole crowd. The K100D is actually faster (as I have told here for several times according to my own experience previously).

In Single AF mode, prefocused but for "full AF", the K10D is actually the slowest amongst the "normal" DSLR, except the Sony and the Olympus, which IMHO is actually too slow to be acceptable.

I bet most of us uses Single AF mode more frequently than all other modes (unless the user has only MF lenses), so this "full AF" timing is crucial for taking a shot with a critical timing.

Attached is an example of mine, the shot was taken with a MZ-S in Single AF mode. I saw the bird was running suddenly and I turned on the camera immediately and there was indeed very little time lag for the AF and the camera system (mirror up to shutter opening) and so I was still able to take the bird. The bird is indeed running very fast. With another Pentax DSLRs, I am really doubt I was still yet able to take the shot, owing to the longer time lag, especially in Single AF mode (but then it's the most commonly used mode).

RiceHigh · 05-18-2007, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by davemdsn

I did compare exactly those models, if you would bother to read. According to the source you quoted the K10D had almost the exact same shutter lag as the D80 and was faster than the 30D. Or were you ignoring those facts because they do not support your fantasy?

The source I quoted measured four things. I suppose you are referring to the first measurbated data only, i.e., the "Full AF" timing, but how about for the rest? If you're adhering closely to the facts (as you emphasize) and the published figures by the IR, anyone can just see the D80 prevails here, in performance, with much shorter time lag.

Well, I just really wonder if we are looking at the same set of IR data. If in doubt, one can always skip my quoting and goes directly to the original links to check, which I have provided and linked to for all tests mentioned)

RiceHigh · 05-18-2007, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by pentaxographer

RiceHigh should post his information on this forum. He is just getting blog hits from the links. Same game on other forums always with the blog links. Just check the web counter on the blog.
Last time for me

My blog hits can be neglectible and just nothing when compared to large Pentax blogs like Ok1000 and PentaxLife. Ok1000 recently told us that he has had 250,000 hits in 7 months and mine has only near 30,000 in near 6 months. So, it's nothing even compared to those more popular Pentax blogs. (But then Ok1000 said that his 250,000 counts is nothing when compared to true large websites on the net, in this huge huge net community! ;-))

So, as I have stated clearly in the first article of my blog (I don't link here this time as you don't like ;-)), my intention is indeed positive, I just collect feedbacks on the potential issues about Pentax gear (or maybe on Pentax as well) and then we can know the pros and cons and ultimately for an inspiration for future improved products from Pentax. Frankly, I believe this is what Pentax should do too and this would help the company to success and their old supporters can have better things to use in the future.

Do note my blog page, unlike most many others (large one or not), has no Ads (Google Adsense), so I have no benefits of any kind as conspiracy theory (always) suggests. I run my site with a true enthusiatic heart and with my love to Pentax, as a die-hard Pentaxian! Just believe it or not..

vinzer · 05-18-2007, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by RiceHigh

Attached is an example of mine, the shot was taken with a MZ-S in Single AF mode. I saw the bird was running suddenly and I turned on the camera immediately and there was indeed very little time lag for the AF and the camera system (mirror up to shutter opening) and so I was still able to take the bird. The bird is indeed running very fast. With another Pentax DSLRs, I am really doubt I was still yet able to take the shot, owing to the longer time lag, especially in Single AF mode (but then it's the most commonly used mode).

Then use another camera if you feel the K10D's lacking.

05-18-2007, 07:09 AM	#1
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934	Final Conclusion about the K10D Shutter Lag Time Full Answers here (I hope):- RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Is the K10D Really Sluggish in Shutter Lag? This time, I just try to explain what the Imaging Resource is measurbating and quote and summarize the results. And then, you can judge and make up the conclusion by yourself! Hope we can really come to a sensible conclusion this time, at least in the heart of oneself. Although different people can still have different views about the meaningfulness of the timings.. Bottom line: different users have different needs but don't tell again there is "no" difference or even "no time lag" :-)

05-18-2007, 02:53 PM	#8
Ray Pulley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fallon Nevada Photos: Albums Posts: 504	At Least Do Your Own Work Originally posted by RiceHigh Full Answers here (I hope):- RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Is the K10D Really Sluggish in Shutter Lag? This time, I just try to explain what the Imaging Resource is measurbating and quote and summarize the results. And then, you can judge and make up the conclusion by yourself! Hope we can really come to a sensible conclusion this time, at least in the heart of oneself. Although different people can still have different views about the meaningfulness of the timings.. Bottom line: different users have different needs but don't tell again there is "no" difference or even "no time lag" :-) You could at least have had the decency to conduct your own tests instead of stealing someone else'e work for your so called "blog". I wonder if Imaging Resources is aware of your use of their work and approves? You are truly obsessed and should seek professional help. Ray

05-18-2007, 07:46 PM	#12
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934 Original Poster	Originally posted by Gimbal Ricehigh, pressing a button twice as fast as one can is NOT a test of ones reaction time. I admit that it is NOT if strictly speaking. But what I'm suggesting to check something similar just for reference. At least, we know how quickly our fingers can move. :-) To do formal scentific measurement, we must have a steady moving object and set a line where when the object is moving pass thro it as we can see the moment, we press the shutter release button and then the displacement in the final test shot is measured. Having known the velocity of the moving object, the measurbator can then know the delayed time lag. But then we are not psychologists to study human reaction times, are we? ;-) (Um, I'm only interested in measurbating DSLRs, you know ;-D) Quote: Have to say that 0.181s is a bit slower than it feels, I wonder how they measure it. ( I'm not question it though.) A free falling object travels about 0.16meters in that time. A quick test with a mirror, pressing the shutter and dropping an object at the same time confirms it roughly. (Actually the test gave a little shorter time but then there was a human involved.) It's actually not very slow, but not fast as well when compared to the whole crowd. The K100D is actually faster (as I have told here for several times according to my own experience previously). In Single AF mode, prefocused but for "full AF", the K10D is actually the slowest amongst the "normal" DSLR, except the Sony and the Olympus, which IMHO is actually too slow to be acceptable. I bet most of us uses Single AF mode more frequently than all other modes (unless the user has only MF lenses), so this "full AF" timing is crucial for taking a shot with a critical timing. Attached is an example of mine, the shot was taken with a MZ-S in Single AF mode. I saw the bird was running suddenly and I turned on the camera immediately and there was indeed very little time lag for the AF and the camera system (mirror up to shutter opening) and so I was still able to take the bird. The bird is indeed running very fast. With another Pentax DSLRs, I am really doubt I was still yet able to take the shot, owing to the longer time lag, especially in Single AF mode (but then it's the most commonly used mode). Attached Images

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05-18-2007, 07:41 AM	#2
davemdsn Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,413	I still don't see what you are complaining about. The Lag time on the K10D, with focus time is virtually identical to the D80. With pre-focus it is only 2/100 of a second slower. Although the 30D is faster in auto focus, the K10D is faster in manual focus, which means that the Canon focuses faster, but the actuall shutter lag performance is better in the K10D. Further proof that you can't be trusted to tell the truth.

05-18-2007, 08:12 AM	#3
klopus Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 56	Originally posted by davemdsn I still don't see what you are complaining about. The Lag time on the K10D, with focus time is virtually identical to the D80. With pre-focus it is only 2/100 of a second slower. Although the 30D is faster in auto focus, the K10D is faster in manual focus, which means that the Canon focuses faster, but the actuall shutter lag performance is better in the K10D. Further proof that you can't be trusted to tell the truth. I also at loss to understand his point except for usual implication of negativity. The only thing that somebody who's not negatively biased and obsessed like our friend RH can conclude from IR and similar DPR measurements is that K10D is pretty competitive in its class.

05-18-2007, 08:19 AM	#4
PeterAM Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Litchfield, CT Posts: 539	All I can say is, who cares?

05-18-2007, 09:20 AM	#5
Classvino Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 132	I think RiceHigh says it best : The author has no responsibility of any kind on the accuracy or whatsoever on all the information and data provided here. From his website.

05-18-2007, 10:02 AM	#6
BrendanPK Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 735	ok, when we start measuring time (other than for races) in tenths and hundrets and even thousandths of seconds can you really (in the real world) tell the difference? The main difference is in AF speed not shutter lag time I have had my K10D since 3 days after the west coast got theirs, I have not noticed a problem, it is faster than my older D's and esp than my DS so I am happy. Sure it is no MKIII (I have handled one) but hey it also does not cost $4K my 2cents

05-18-2007, 12:15 PM	#7
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Ricehigh, pressing a button twice as fast as one can is NOT a test of ones reaction time. Have to say that 0.181s is a bit slower than it feels, I wonder how they measure it. ( I'm not question it though.) A free falling object travels about 0.16meters in that time. A quick test with a mirror, pressing the shutter and dropping an object at the same time confirms it roughly. (Actually the test gave a little shorter time but then there was a human involved.) Last edited by Gimbal; 05-18-2007 at 12:27 PM.

05-18-2007, 07:14 PM	#9
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934 Original Poster	Originally posted by BrendanPK ok, when we start measuring time (other than for races) in tenths and hundrets and even thousandths of seconds can you really (in the real world) tell the difference? Yes and no, depends on the application and the speed of moving object. Still, the shortest possible time lag is mostly desirable. Quote: The main difference is in AF speed not shutter lag time I have had my K10D since 3 days after the west coast got theirs, I have not noticed a problem, it is faster than my older D's and esp than my DS so I am happy. Not really. The Imaging Resource is not testing the AF speed at all. Their "Full AF" test is a mean to measure the system time lag in single AF mode and even that they have prefocused the object but released the shutter release first. As for AF speed, we have no doubt that the K10D or the K100D is faster than the ist DS or even the ist D (which is the fastest *ist DSLR already), which I also tell others from time to time. Quote: Sure it is no MKIII (I have handled one) but hey it also does not cost $4K my 2cents Yes, agreed. So, we need to compare apple to apple, orange to orange. E.g., we should compare DSLR in the same price range and specifications. Just say we should compare the K10D to the D80 or 30D. And then the K100 to the D40 and so on (400D/XTi is something in between). BTW, it's always interesting to learn how those truly top pro models can perform, isn't it? p.s. Brendan, congrats for having a new toy! Haven't seen you at the PhotoZone for long, why not go back there to see Klaus and our old friends? :-) Roland and I etc. still there! (Recently, the knowledgable Mr. Alan Chan from Canada is also here!)

05-18-2007, 07:28 PM	#10
pentaxographer Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 44	RiceHigh should post his information on this forum. He is just getting blog hits from the links. Same game on other forums always with the blog links. Just check the web counter on the blog. Last time for me

05-18-2007, 07:46 PM	#11
davemdsn Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boise, Idaho Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,413	Originally posted by RiceHigh Yes, agreed. So, we need to compare apple to apple, orange to orange. E.g., we should compare DSLR in the same price range and specifications. Just say we should compare the K10D to the D80 or 30D. I did compare exactly those models, if you would bother to read. According to the source you quoted the K10D had almost the exact same shutter lag as the D80 and was faster than the 30D. Or were you ignoring those facts because they do not support your fantasy?

05-18-2007, 07:58 PM	#13
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934 Original Poster	Originally posted by davemdsn I did compare exactly those models, if you would bother to read. According to the source you quoted the K10D had almost the exact same shutter lag as the D80 and was faster than the 30D. Or were you ignoring those facts because they do not support your fantasy? The source I quoted measured four things. I suppose you are referring to the first measurbated data only, i.e., the "Full AF" timing, but how about for the rest? If you're adhering closely to the facts (as you emphasize) and the published figures by the IR, anyone can just see the D80 prevails here, in performance, with much shorter time lag. Well, I just really wonder if we are looking at the same set of IR data. If in doubt, one can always skip my quoting and goes directly to the original links to check, which I have provided and linked to for all tests mentioned)

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05-18-2007, 08:10 PM	#14
RiceHigh Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,934 Original Poster	Originally posted by pentaxographer RiceHigh should post his information on this forum. He is just getting blog hits from the links. Same game on other forums always with the blog links. Just check the web counter on the blog. Last time for me My blog hits can be neglectible and just nothing when compared to large Pentax blogs like Ok1000 and PentaxLife. Ok1000 recently told us that he has had 250,000 hits in 7 months and mine has only near 30,000 in near 6 months. So, it's nothing even compared to those more popular Pentax blogs. (But then Ok1000 said that his 250,000 counts is nothing when compared to true large websites on the net, in this huge huge net community! ;-)) So, as I have stated clearly in the first article of my blog (I don't link here this time as you don't like ;-)), my intention is indeed positive, I just collect feedbacks on the potential issues about Pentax gear (or maybe on Pentax as well) and then we can know the pros and cons and ultimately for an inspiration for future improved products from Pentax. Frankly, I believe this is what Pentax should do too and this would help the company to success and their old supporters can have better things to use in the future. Do note my blog page, unlike most many others (large one or not), has no Ads (Google Adsense), so I have no benefits of any kind as conspiracy theory (always) suggests. I run my site with a true enthusiatic heart and with my love to Pentax, as a die-hard Pentaxian! Just believe it or not..

05-18-2007, 09:51 PM	#15
vinzer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Philippines Posts: 1,399	Originally posted by RiceHigh Attached is an example of mine, the shot was taken with a MZ-S in Single AF mode. I saw the bird was running suddenly and I turned on the camera immediately and there was indeed very little time lag for the AF and the camera system (mirror up to shutter opening) and so I was still able to take the bird. The bird is indeed running very fast. With another Pentax DSLRs, I am really doubt I was still yet able to take the shot, owing to the longer time lag, especially in Single AF mode (but then it's the most commonly used mode). Then use another camera if you feel the K10D's lacking.