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01-21-2010, 12:04 AM   #211
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How long ago do you suppose the FF line was designed, and how much updating do you imagine would be necessary to get remotely close to current standards?

What about materials - they have changed significantly and the materials in the old barrels would be far more expensive to produce today. Do you think these "production lines" have been somehow placed in storage?

Certainly the body and technology advances have moved along faster than changes in lenses. But the changes are real, and it would be impractical to turn back the clock.

What we almost certainly will see next in terms of a huge shift will be collaboration on the NX mount (Samsung), or something very similar to in competition with Samsung, Olympus and Panasonic. That's just where it is going to have to head because even deep pockets and much larger market share Sony is finding out that FF was a really bad idea from a profit perspective.

01-21-2010, 05:39 AM   #212
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A lot depends on how many megapixel sensor is used. APS-C sensors crop off the edges which can be a good thing, but they also have amazing pixel density in the middle. A 15 megapixel full frame camera would likely be easier to design lenses for than a 25 megapixel one.

I forsee Pentax releasing a full frame camera when the time is right (basically when the sensor price is down enough that they can release the camera for below 2000 dollars). At the same time, they will release two new lenses -- a 28-70 f2.8 and a 80-200 f2.8 as well as a redone kit lens.
01-21-2010, 06:07 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jewelltrail Quote
I want to thank Hakaan, along with all the other contributors, for giving us this thread. [...] I leave this thread with a much better understanding than when I entered--THANKS.
+1
QuoteOriginally posted by buliwyf Quote
you'll get the same Depth of Field. BUT you sill have different PERSPECTIVE.
One example of an unqualified post (because it is a false statement).
QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
the difference in all measurable sensor characteristics between the 20d and 5d are negligible.
Another example of an unqualified post (because it is an imprecise statement).

As Jewelltrail said, this used to be a great thread which managed to overcome some more common prejudices.

To all posters who reanimated this thread:

Can you please refrain from having the same old FF vs. APS-C discussion as everywhere? This is NOT your thread!


And to a Moderator: Can You PLEASE close the thread to protect the information contained up to 10-15-2009? Thank You so much!
01-21-2010, 06:41 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by buliwyf Quote
it's not just a matter of lower noise or wider FOV.

PERSPECTIVE is a big factor also.

~33mm on APS-C will have the same FOV as with a 50mm on Full-Frame. If you stop down the aperture on the FF and open it up on the APS-C, you'll get the same Depth of Field. BUT you sill have different PERSPECTIVE.
Perspective is a condition of where the camera is, the lens has nothing to do with it.

01-21-2010, 10:06 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Perspective is a condition of where the camera is, the lens has nothing to do with it.
strictly speaking, yes. BUT I was talking about achieving the same FOV with different lenses.

If you want to achieve the same FOV of a Full Frame on an APS-C, you either have to move back/forward, or change lens focal lengths. Either way, you alter the perspective.

The only way you can have equal FOV and perspective from FF and APS-C is to crop your full frame image to the size of an APS-C on post processing.
01-21-2010, 11:20 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by buliwyf Quote
If you want to achieve the same FOV of a Full Frame on an APS-C, you either have to move back/forward, or change lens focal lengths. Either way, you alter the perspective.
buliwyf, please accept my word. You are wrong.

It may be an excellent idea to really READ the 214 earlier posts in this thread before going to post.

And because you probably don't trust me... "moving back/forward" doesn't change the FoV. And the rest of your post is just as wrong.
01-21-2010, 02:57 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by buliwyf Quote
strictly speaking, yes. BUT I was talking about achieving the same FOV with different lenses.

If you want to achieve the same FOV of a Full Frame on an APS-C, you either have to move back/forward, or change lens focal lengths. Either way, you alter the perspective.
False. If you stand in the same spot and shoot 33mm on APS-C and 50mm on FF, you get *exactly* the same perspective. The notion that perspective has anything whatsoever to do with focal length is a myth that apparently will take a long time to die, but it is a myth nonetheless. Perspective is a function of position and position only. Changing FOV might cause you to want to change position, which is how the myth started ("oooh, this wide angle lens made me come in closer to my subject, and now it's distorted - must be the lens that it did it!" - no, it was the fact that you changed position to accomodate the change in FOV). But as long as you maintain the same position, you have the same perspective. So as long as you achieve the same FOV with two different lens/camera combos, they will have *exactly* the same perspective. Physics does not allow otherwise, I'm afraid, unless you install a black hole somewhere between you and your subject to bend the light. But here on earth, light travels in straight lines between your subject and your lens.

BTW, I could close this thread as Falk suggests, but might as well let this play out - I'd hate to be accused of closing it just to have the last word. And even then, I'm not sure closing it is warranted.

Oh, and Jewelltrail: "These go to eleven"!
01-21-2010, 03:29 PM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Oh, and Jewelltrail: "These go to eleven"!

Thanks. I didn't have the heart to say it myself. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7rWiY5obI

Will

01-21-2010, 05:20 PM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Oh, what a timeless piece. Thanks a lot.

Is this buliwyf saying "These go to eleven"?
01-21-2010, 07:27 PM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
False. If you stand in the same spot and shoot 33mm on APS-C and 50mm on FF, you get *exactly* the same perspective. The notion that perspective has anything whatsoever to do with focal length is a myth that apparently will take a long time to die, but it is a myth nonetheless. Perspective is a function of position and position only. Changing FOV might cause you to want to change position, which is how the myth started ("oooh, this wide angle lens made me come in closer to my subject, and now it's distorted - must be the lens that it did it!" - no, it was the fact that you changed position to accomodate the change in FOV). But as long as you maintain the same position, you have the same perspective. So as long as you achieve the same FOV with two different lens/camera combos, they will have *exactly* the same perspective. Physics does not allow otherwise, I'm afraid, unless you install a black hole somewhere between you and your subject to bend the light. But here on earth, light travels in straight lines between your subject and your lens.

BTW, I could close this thread as Falk suggests, but might as well let this play out - I'd hate to be accused of closing it just to have the last word. And even then, I'm not sure closing it is warranted.

Oh, and Jewelltrail: "These go to eleven"!
K. I did some experiments. You are right. I am wrong.

28mm on Full-Frame VS 18mm on APS-C @ the same shooting position have the same FOV AND Perspective.

ok now what's with the Nigel Tufnel?
01-21-2010, 07:37 PM   #221
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good thing no one closed the thread!
01-22-2010, 03:35 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by buliwyf Quote
I did some experiments. [...] ok now what's with the Nigel Tufnel?
A rare and refreshing experience. I withdraw my comment about "11" and welcome you to the thread of myth busters.

On the other hand, I am convinced still that further posts will not increase the signal-to-noise ratio in this thread
01-22-2010, 03:04 PM   #223
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since i dont have a FF digital, i picked up my old EOS GII. bought some cheap iso125 12shot film, did some test shots with my (only remaining canon lens) EF 28mm F2.8. then compared it to my K-x @ 18mm. So it was 28mm FF VS 18mm APS-C.

arranged some stuff, stood on the same position and fired away. et voila, the perspective are the same. FOV is the same.
01-23-2010, 12:28 PM   #224
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Glad you posted your experience. Like I said, old myths die hard, but perhaps your post will help convince those who have heard and believed the myth but have no way of testing for themselves.

Actually, what would really be interesting is if you could sift through all the discussion on equivalence for the info on DOF, and see if you can reproduce the effect described: shooting the 18mm on APS-C should produce not just the same FOV and perspective as the 28 on FF, but also the same DOF *if* you shoot at one stop larger aperture on APS-C (eg, 18mm at f/4 on APS-C, 28mm at f/5.6 on FF). You'd have to set up a shot where it was reasonably easy to check this. Of course, the 28mm shot at f/5.6 would also require you to be one stop higher in ISO in order to get the same shutter speed.
01-23-2010, 04:06 PM   #225
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I have not done any real test. But I have used online DOF calculator to check things out and it confirms what you guys were talking about.

For example:

The DOF from the 18mm @F4 using aps-c at 10 feet subject distance is "34 ft".

The DOF from the 27mm @F4 using FF at 10 feet subject distance is "13.2 ft".
The DOF from the 27mm @F5.6 using FF at 10 feet subject distance is "27.8 ft".
The DOF from the 27mm @F8 using FF at 10 feet subject distance is "1835.9 ft".

So you do have to use 1 stop smaller aperture to achieve "similar" DOF.

Note I used 27mm because 18mmX1.5=27mm.



Online Depth of Field Calculator

Last edited by ma318; 01-23-2010 at 05:30 PM.
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