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09-19-2009, 02:10 PM   #166
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Oh shove it.

09-19-2009, 03:42 PM   #167
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Seems to me that a lot of the folks getting worked up about the red square in the viewfinder are people actually used to having a red square. I'm not sure that this camera is targeted at them at all. In fact it's testament to its other strengths that some of them are even considering it.

Go back 2 months. When I got my new dSLR it took me a while to actually realise that the damm red thing means it's busy getting focus and getting it there, and the green hex means it's got it. For weeks I thought it meant it HAD focus.

So actually removing that red thing might actually make things simpler for first time users. It's very difficult for people used to certain features to put themselves in the shoes of those without. It might very well be that for first time dSLR buyers it's not a case of "oh it doesn't have xyz which I'm used to" but "cool it actually has AF confirmation in the viewfinder."

And if I'm right once they start using their dSLRs more and want to have their focus point elsewhere they can do this in the menus, is that right?
09-19-2009, 04:32 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Your other points are all excellent and are indeed part of why I think this is being blow way out of proportion. Sure, some people are so used to doing things one way and cannot imagine any other way of doing things, and for them, this is unfortunately not the camera. There's still an awful lot of people left in the world who will be able to deal with this just fine.
Why should they? It's a normalized feature. It exists to give people options. The competition has it. At this price point in the previous generation (K200D), Pentax had the feature.

Pentax has enough trouble getting people to look at the brand and stores to stock it, why mess with a known, common feature?

QuoteQuote:
Although FWIW, not knowing how much more it would have cost to add the indicators, or what effect it would have had on size/weight/time-to-market, I do suspect people are right that leaving them out was a mistake that will cost more than in saved in the long run. But it shouldn't be the gloom-and-doom icture people are painting. And in any event, we're all just guessing here. Do any of us really think we have access to better marketing data, sales figures, cost/benefit analyses, and so on, than Pentax does?
Two major review sites zeroed in on this, in part because Pentax positioned the camera as a replacement or the K200D, not the K-m. Same for Amazon. Same for my local major dealer. This means that reviewers who saw the side-by-side with the K200D, and with competitive models, were puzzled and slanted by the omission. "Broken camera". Yeah, it's an entrenched expectation of consumer choice and tecihncal advancement. Pentax goofed.

Pentax simply cannot afford mistakes like that on spec. They issues with marketing, and now before a unit hits the shelves it's got front page anti-marketing.

What also has been in the back of people's minds is the massive price gap between the K-x and the K-7. One only has to go $100 up to Canikon to get those features (not WR), and all the perceived advantages of those brands. With a $500 price difference between models (and the K-x comes with a kit lens), Pentax is missing the fat part of the market. So those who buy there, like us K200D users, see loss It's not so much what's "missing" (although I think HDMI out is problematic), as what was removed unnecessarily. What's really missing, is a true mid-range model.

And it's probably a $12 part. Between that and the changes to the kit lens Pentax is looking a little cheap, and dare I say it, more like Canikon in the path they've chosen. Ironically, the K-x takes away many of the features at the lower end we used to rally around the Pentax flag for as being proof of quality and difference.

Tried a K-7 today. Very, very nice camera. Very soon to be mine.
09-19-2009, 04:46 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
So actually removing that red thing might actually make things simpler for first time users. It's very difficult for people used to certain features to put themselves in the shoes of those without. It might very well be that for first time dSLR buyers it's not a case of "oh it doesn't have xyz which I'm used to" but "cool it actually has AF confirmation in the viewfinder."

And if I'm right once they start using their dSLRs more and want to have their focus point elsewhere they can do this in the menus, is that right?
You can choose the focus point but nothing in the viewfinder indicates which one you've chosen. So if you're walking around, pull the camera up to your eye, and press the shutter button, well you may have no clue what focus point is active other than trying to judge where it focused. That's what people are complaining about, and IMO rightfully so. On the K-m with 3 points it's not a big deal, but when you have 11 I can see it getting a little hard to remember which one you picked.

Side note: I sure hope we don't need to add "well you should use center point only" to the official list of excuses (along with "real photographers anticipate the action and don't need high framerates" and so on and so forth)... hopefully the next body will have it!

09-19-2009, 04:51 PM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Why should they? It's a normalized feature. It exists to give people options. The competition has it. At this price point in the previous generation (K200D), Pentax had the feature.

Pentax has enough trouble getting people to look at the brand and stores to stock it, why mess with a known, common feature?



Two major review sites zeroed in on this, in part because Pentax positioned the camera as a replacement or the K200D, not the K-m. Same for Amazon. Same for my local major dealer. This means that reviewers who saw the side-by-side with the K200D, and with competitive models, were puzzled and slanted by the omission. "Broken camera". Yeah, it's an entrenched expectation of consumer choice and tecihncal advancement. Pentax goofed.

Pentax simply cannot afford mistakes like that on spec. They issues with marketing, and now before a unit hits the shelves it's got front page anti-marketing.

What also has been in the back of people's minds is the massive price gap between the K-x and the K-7. One only has to go $100 up to Canikon to get those features (not WR), and all the perceived advantages of those brands. With a $500 price difference between models (and the K-x comes with a kit lens), Pentax is missing the fat part of the market. So those who buy there, like us K200D users, see loss It's not so much what's "missing" (although I think HDMI out is problematic), as what was removed unnecessarily. What's really missing, is a true mid-range model.

And it's probably a $12 part. Between that and the changes to the kit lens Pentax is looking a little cheap, and dare I say it, more like Canikon in the path they've chosen. Ironically, the K-x takes away many of the features at the lower end we used to rally around the Pentax flag for as being proof of quality and difference.

Tried a K-7 today. Very, very nice camera. Very soon to be mine.
The Pentax rep assured me that K-x is not a replacement of K200, it is a competitive model to the T1i and D5000. I don't recall whether both T1i and D5000 have the focus point select in the viewfinder although I think it may be there in LV. But feature wise, with the exception of articulate LCD and AF assist light, I don't think it is less than either T1i or D5000 and yet it is priced less than both.
09-19-2009, 05:36 PM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Why should they? It's a normalized feature. It exists to give people options. The competition has it. At this price point in the previous generation (K200D), Pentax had the feature.

Pentax has enough trouble getting people to look at the brand and stores to stock it, why mess with a known, common feature?



Two major review sites zeroed in on this, in part because Pentax positioned the camera as a replacement or the K200D, not the K-m. Same for Amazon. Same for my local major dealer. This means that reviewers who saw the side-by-side with the K200D, and with competitive models, were puzzled and slanted by the omission. "Broken camera". Yeah, it's an entrenched expectation of consumer choice and tecihncal advancement. Pentax goofed.

Pentax simply cannot afford mistakes like that on spec. They issues with marketing, and now before a unit hits the shelves it's got front page anti-marketing.

What also has been in the back of people's minds is the massive price gap between the K-x and the K-7. One only has to go $100 up to Canikon to get those features (not WR), and all the perceived advantages of those brands. With a $500 price difference between models (and the K-x comes with a kit lens), Pentax is missing the fat part of the market. So those who buy there, like us K200D users, see loss It's not so much what's "missing" (although I think HDMI out is problematic), as what was removed unnecessarily. What's really missing, is a true mid-range model.

And it's probably a $12 part. Between that and the changes to the kit lens Pentax is looking a little cheap, and dare I say it, more like Canikon in the path they've chosen. Ironically, the K-x takes away many of the features at the lower end we used to rally around the Pentax flag for as being proof of quality and difference.

Tried a K-7 today. Very, very nice camera. Very soon to be mine.
Man you've lost me. What features are they taking away from their other cameras? I mean really, did you never use a K100D or an *ist DS? The K-x is more similar to them than anything else.
09-19-2009, 05:46 PM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
Man you've lost me. What features are they taking away from their other cameras? I mean really, did you never use a K100D or an *ist DS? The K-x is more similar to them than anything else.
The K100D is 3 years old and the *ist DS (I have to say I really like this one) 5. Can't really compare them to current gear as far as features go.
09-19-2009, 06:24 PM   #173
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I think most of you complaining about the absence of the AF points are completely missing the point. The peolpe that this camera is CLEARLY aimed at could not care less if it had little red squares dancing around the viewfinder. They will use LV and focus the same way they did with their P&S and they will be completley happy with that, They will love the features, they will LOVE the colours and the video etc and these camera will fly off the shelves. If the features of this camera don't suit you get a camera that does! This camera is not for everybody but people will love it!

09-19-2009, 06:44 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
I think most of you complaining about the absence of the AF points are completely missing the point. The peolpe that this camera is CLEARLY aimed at could not care less if it had little red squares dancing around the viewfinder. They will use LV and focus the same way they did with their P&S and they will be completley happy with that, They will love the features, they will LOVE the colours and the video etc and these camera will fly off the shelves. If the features of this camera don't suit you get a camera that does! This camera is not for everybody but people will love it!
I think you are the one completely missing the point. With the K20D and K200D discontinued it leaves prospective Pentax buyers with an entry level body that's crippled in this manner, and a high level body that's just too expensive for most.

You can't really pimp the "weather resistant, rugged cameras, for serious enthusiasts" line with ONE body. Let's see a K-x with weather sealing and visible AF points, or a K200 successor along those lines.
09-19-2009, 06:45 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
The K100D is 3 years old and the *ist DS (I have to say I really like this one) 5. Can't really compare them to current gear as far as features go.
I was talking about the camera class that they were in, since he claimed that Pentax stripped all of it's features to turn more into Canon and Nikon.
09-19-2009, 07:09 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
The Pentax rep assured me that K-x is not a replacement of K200, it is a competitive model to the T1i and D5000. I don't recall whether both T1i and D5000 have the focus point select in the viewfinder although I think it may be there in LV. But feature wise, with the exception of articulate LCD and AF assist light, I don't think it is less than either T1i or D5000 and yet it is priced less than both.
Then it's not "entry level" because those are not the Canikon entry level models. You're letting your competitor define you.

If the K-x is competing with these two, it's not quite there. It takes shortcuts to compete on price. Lack of HDMI-out, an old-in-the-tooth and maligned Safox 8 AF system are sore spots. The Nikon has superior dust reduction, an articulating LCD, and some very good 3D AF tracking. Canon can shoot 1080p video (not so good w/o tripod), has 14-bit RAW, the fastest focus kit lens I've ever used (Photozone gets this right), and 15 MPs. The Nikon selects AF pint in LV, but the LED lets you know where. The Canon does it all. Both have excellent accessories, like external flashes.

I'm not saying the Pentax does not compete. It blows every "entry level" camera out of the water and its FPS is higher. That said, it's priced high for entry level compared to Oly and Nikon. It's just that the K-x is not positioned as entry level if it's going up against those 2 Nikanon's—it's mid-range, which is why independents and Amazon are confused. The buyer of the T1i/D5000 is going to be an upsell buyer, who is likely to put money into lenses and accessories, so at this price point $50 will get him a world of options that Pentax hasn't quite got.

Both the D5000 and T1i got DP Reviews somewhat watered down Highly Recommended, while the K-M/2000 got just Recommended (with reservations). This is the note from the DP Review:

"And that's a problem - the entry-level DSLR market is now a fiercely competitive place - the difference between the best and worst is slight and there's no one camera that stands out entirely from its peers. Unfortunately, the K2000, while very likeable in many respects, simply has a few more flaws than any of its opponents and those weaknesses are likely to mean that, whatever your needs, there's a better camera out there for you."

On spec and by price, the K-x makes similar trade-offsas a mid-range. For a true entry level, sure, it's amazing. But for the K200D replacement, it's not good enough, and for going head-to-head with the Canikon's referenced above it will finish in 3rd place. I suspect in Japan the pretty colours will lift its sales, but not elsewhere, not with M4/3 breathing down everyone's market share necks. With Canikon, you're going up against a system. There can be no missed steps. That's why the K-7 is so awesome. They opened the vault, brought out the jewels, shined them up, and everyone went "Wow!"

For those waiting for the K200D replacement, the DP Review site nailed it on the K2000 review when it said:

"And so, despite scoring well in virtually all areas, on balance the K2000 is a difficult camera to wholeheartedly recommend, certainly in the face of such stiff competition. The fact that it gets so much right makes the bits it gets wrong especially disappointing, and means our final rating ends up far more lukewarm than we'd like it to be."

From my perspective, with the K-x,if they'd worked over the glaring Achille's Heel of the dated AF system and put in HDMI, they'd have a benchmark model that could compete in BOTH segments very, very well.

If they came out with a version with improve AF, HDMI out, body WR and the WR kit lens, for $175 more, Pentax would smoke the mid-range segment where the buyers who get an extra piece of glass or two live.

There's the $$$.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 09-19-2009 at 07:40 PM.
09-19-2009, 07:09 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by mickey Quote
It's K-m size is a bit too small for me, but what's it's packing beneath its body is awesome.
Apart from size, I would seriously consider this, rather than wait for the K-7 to drop in price.
Great-looking camera.
Should be a big hit, certainly in Japan.
I wonder if there will be a grip out for it.
09-19-2009, 07:15 PM   #178
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QuoteQuote:
I think you are the one completely missing the point. With the K20D and K200D discontinued it leaves prospective Pentax buyers with an entry level body that's crippled in this manner, and a high level body that's just too expensive for most.
I fail to see how you you can call the best specced entry level camera "crippled". If you cant't take photos without the AF point displayed in the viewfinder for you then maybe you should consider buying a P&S? As for WS the average photographer doesnt need it. We should be applauding this great move by Pentax/Hoya, it will give them the dollars to develop more camers.
09-19-2009, 07:23 PM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
I think most of you complaining about the absence of the AF points are completely missing the point. The peolpe that this camera is CLEARLY aimed at could not care less if it had little red squares dancing around the viewfinder. They will use LV and focus the same way they did with their P&S and they will be completley happy with that, They will love the features, they will LOVE the colours and the video etc and these camera will fly off the shelves. If the features of this camera don't suit you get a camera that does! This camera is not for everybody but people will love it!
Are you sure about all that? Can you speak for every consumer out there? They just want pretty cameras?

Are you sure that a $650 camera is only aimed at the P&S crowd?

Thats's why every spec is important, why forums like this agonize over details. If you make generalized assumptions instead of following the logic, you take on more market risk.
09-19-2009, 07:24 PM   #180
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Can someone point to Pentax indicating that the Kx is a K200d replacement? Link, please.
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