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09-19-2009, 07:38 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
I fail to see how you you can call the best specced entry level camera "crippled". If you cant't take photos without the AF point displayed in the viewfinder for you then maybe you should consider buying a P&S? As for WS the average photographer doesnt need it. We should be applauding this great move by Pentax/Hoya, it will give them the dollars to develop more camers.
Thank-you for pigeonholing the "average" photographer. Maybe half the people who bought the K200D last year wanted this feature when they moved up from P&S?

Prove you know they did not.

Here's how consumer markets work.

If you take the 2008 September $650 K200D and it has a set of features that got terrific reviews (it did), and then lay it out by the K-x and compare features, you would note that the K-x loses some core functions and switches compared to the K200D.

This is called a downgrade.

The new features of the K-x (sensor, colours, video) are inimical to the advance of technology. Every brand is doing the exact same thing. That's the whole point of buying a new camera (at least from Pentax's perspective).

So, if you force the current customer to make choice between losing features that he would have had the previous model, or spending $600 more on the upgrade to stay with the brand, you've just given him the perfect market rationale to switch brands.

This is precisely how companies lose existing customers, something that has plagued Pentax for many years.

In almost all circumstance, you do not ever want to lose your mid-range buyers to a competitor, because these are the ones who may buy up, or may economize down, but with options, they can still stay with your brand (a core Toyota strategy BTW).

Looking at Pentax's market profile, balance sheet, and market share, this is not a company that can afford to lose its mid-range market.

09-19-2009, 08:19 PM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Can someone point to Pentax indicating that the Kx is a K200d replacement? Link, please.
Apparently it arises from a statement made by DiPreview on the K-x and perpetuated by Amazon. Although you are probably aware of it.

QuoteQuote:
The Pentax K-x sits in the slot previously occupied by the company's K200D - one of the best-specified entry-level DSLRs on the market in its time - though that position has now been elevated by the arrival of a new breed of simplified models below it. In Pentax's line-up that means the K2000/K-m designed to entice compact camera users into DSLR ownership with its easy-to-use interface and diminutive scale, and it's that camera the K-x is immediately reminiscent of (they share the same body).
Pentax K-x brief hands-on: Digital Photography Review

Edit: My take on the Pentax Imaging press release is that it is replacing the K-m. There may not be a K200d replacement per se.
QuoteQuote:
Priced at $649.95 USD (for body with DA L 18-55mm lens), the extremely compact and lightweight PENTAX K-x forges ahead on the trail initiated by the popular PENTAX K2000.
http://www.pentaximaging.com/about-us.aspx?p=press

Last edited by Blue; 09-19-2009 at 08:26 PM.
09-19-2009, 08:26 PM   #183
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QuoteQuote:
If you take the 2008 September $650 K200D and it has a set of features that got terrific reviews (it did), and then lay it out by the K-x and compare features, you would note that the K-x loses some core functions and switches compared to the K200D.
In Oz the K200 was retailing for $1,100 (April 2008). The K-X is a much cheaper entry level camera with significant upgrades. BTW where are the other brands who have video on an entry level camera and have a range of colours? At the moment Pentax has the best featured and amazing looking entry level DSLR in the matketplace...end of story. I think you (and others) will be eating humble (apple?) pie in a few months!
09-19-2009, 08:45 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Apparently it arises from a statement made by DiPreview on the K-x and perpetuated by Amazon. Although you are probably aware of it.

Pentax K-x brief hands-on: Digital Photography Review

Edit: My take on the Pentax Imaging press release is that it is replacing the K-m. There may not be a K200d replacement per se.

PENTAX News and Press Releases - Official PENTAX Imaging Web Site
So Pentax has nowhere said that the Kx is a K200d replacement, but our greek marketing whiz keeps insisting that Pentax introduced it as such. And in fact Pentax specifically says, "Priced at $649.95 USD (for body with DA L 18-55mm lens), the extremely compact and lightweight PENTAX K-x forges ahead on the trail initiated by the popular PENTAX K2000."

K2000 (which is the same as the Km). Not K200d.

Well there ya go...I guess he just missed a zero...

09-19-2009, 08:46 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Thank-you for pigeonholing the "average" photographer. Maybe half the people who bought the K200D last year wanted this feature when they moved up from P&S?

Prove you know they did not.

Here's how consumer markets work.

If you take the 2008 September $650 K200D and it has a set of features that got terrific reviews (it did), and then lay it out by the K-x and compare features, you would note that the K-x loses some core functions and switches compared to the K200D.

This is called a downgrade.

The new features of the K-x (sensor, colours, video) are inimical to the advance of technology. Every brand is doing the exact same thing. That's the whole point of buying a new camera (at least from Pentax's perspective).

So, if you force the current customer to make choice between losing features that he would have had the previous model, or spending $600 more on the upgrade to stay with the brand, you've just given him the perfect market rationale to switch brands.

This is precisely how companies lose existing customers, something that has plagued Pentax for many years.

In almost all circumstance, you do not ever want to lose your mid-range buyers to a competitor, because these are the ones who may buy up, or may economize down, but with options, they can still stay with your brand (a core Toyota strategy BTW).

Looking at Pentax's market profile, balance sheet, and market share, this is not a company that can afford to lose its mid-range market.
You talk about the K200D as if it was a great success for Pentax. The truth is it was a good camera, but it was also a sort of oddball tweener camera price wise that didn't sell very well -- not as well as the K20D above it or the K-m below it.

You are correct that the K-x probably will not be the darling of the camera review sites. The K-m wasn't really beloved by Dpreview either for that matter. But look at the buzz surrounding the K-x, quotes like this will start popping up:

"Pentax redefines specs for value for entry level cameras"
"Pentax has lowest priced DSLR with HD video and live view"
"Pentax dSLR takes video to a new low price"
(various other versions of how cheap this camera is)

This will be labeled to the consumer as a budget purchase, therefore they will be prepared to accept certain limitations in order to spend less money. Pentax could have added $175 as you say and competed well with the Tli and the D5000, but then not only would they have to sell more to make a profit, they'd no longer be able to claim that they have the cheapest HD video dSLR in its class. It would just be another camera in its range. How would they differentiate that to non Pentax users? Different color schemes? Weatherproofing?

I know you feel this strategy won't work, but let me give you a brief example why I think it might. I have a friend who is not into photography, but liked the photos I and my other photographer friends had taken, so she decided she wanted to get a dSLR. I tried to convince her to buy a refurbished $380 K200d from Best Buy, as I reasoned that this was a whole lot of camera for the money and she could match this with a decent lens for less than $600. A great deal, I thought.

She listened to my advice, thanked me, and then a week later went and bought a new Nikon D40.

Why? She said she wanted to buy a camera for less than $500. For $100 more she could have had a much better camera, but for her purposes that was too much to spend.

Camera consumers do read reviews, and they may be swayed by a lack of red confirmation points. But those same reviews, even if mostly negative, will have to admit that the specs of the K-x are fantastic for the price, which is exactly what the K-x is designed to be. Even if it isn't a smashing success, I wouldn't be surprised if it does better than the Olympus E620, which the critics love, just because the E620 does not have HD video.

True, this leaves K200D users who want to upgrade but don't want to spend $1,000 plus in limbo unless they switch systems. But if this group wants to upgrade on the cheap, why not buy the still very good K20D?

I hope Pentax does add a camera in the $700-900 price range. Personally I think they should drop the K-7 to this range by next year, then add a new flag ship.

We'll see.

Last edited by Urkeldaedalus; 09-19-2009 at 09:00 PM.
09-19-2009, 08:57 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
So Pentax has nowhere said that the Kx is a K200d replacement, but our greek marketing whiz keeps insisting that Pentax introduced it as such.
No, I did not.

I said that reviewers and retailers were explaining it as such, as were many consumers online.

It does not matter what Pentax says; what matters is what the market and its gatekeepers say.

We've also heard through Ned Bunnell hearsay on this board that there is no K200D replacement until after Spring 2010, which means there is no replacement. It's a 2-model shop going through the bulk of the sales season.

That can only mean that the K-x has to do double duty as the entry-level and mid-range.

Well there ya go...I guess he just missed a zero...

Apparently I hit something vital ;-)

And for those who say that video is the deal-breaker, this only emphasizes the point.
09-19-2009, 09:02 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
A good set of NiMH batteries + charger costs about as much as a new Li-Ion battery.

A fresh set of Eneloops costs next to nothing to replace.
Did see LiOn battery in low-end Olympus or Nikon.
Very light and compact. Lighter than 4 AA. More compact.
The price?
It's lower than good charger + 4 AA NiMh.

Check price. Good charger - till 50 USD + 4 good AA NiMh (approx. 12-15 USD).
Energizer Lithium Ultra AA = 2*4= USD8. It's very rare in our shops.

Don't forget that it's not easy to find Eneloops. Maybe, in Europe or USA it's easy.
But not in Russia.
09-19-2009, 09:03 PM   #188
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I have an idea:

Pentax should offer a Pentax K-x Leica Platinum model that has a full frame sensor, is immaculately engineered, and costs $7,000.

The select few who could afford it would line up for the photographic experience of having no red focus points.

09-19-2009, 09:09 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
I think we have a new RiceHigh.
If you are referring to Aristophanese, whether you agree with him or not, he has consistently made well-reasoned arguments and is more frequently positive than negative.

All around, his observations are rational and well-stated.

His failing (we all fail at this) is to compare Pentax with Canon. We should contrast Pentax with Canon. They are completely different companies in scale, philosophy and market.

Read more. Post less.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-19-2009 at 09:18 PM.
09-19-2009, 09:09 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote

That's a silly comparison. The K200D kit did not come out at $650, it came out at $800. No fair comparing brand new list prices to closeout prices. The K200D was clearly aimed at a different market than the K-x. Pretending otherwise is a strawman.
Hoya made the gap between K-7 and K-x consciously. It's it is clear as day.

K200D got 1.6% of DSLR market in Japan. K20D was 3 times WORSE.

For example, my K200D is broken.
You say - K-x is $650, K200D - $800.

What is easier for me? What to choose?
To add USD150 and buy new camera (replacement of K200D) for $800, or to add $500 and to buy K-7?

Hoya has nothing between K-x and K-7.

Last edited by ogl; 09-19-2009 at 09:15 PM.
09-19-2009, 09:15 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If you are referring to Aristophanese, he has consistently made well-reasoned comments and is more frequently positive than negative.

All around, his observations are rational, well-stated, and pretty much on target.

Read more. Post less.
+1. I'm with you.
09-19-2009, 09:17 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
You talk about the K200D as if it was a great success for Pentax. The truth is it was a good camera, but it was also a sort of oddball tweener camera price wise that didn't sell very well -- not as well as the K20D above it or the K-m below it.
Check statistics. K200D was BIG success.
09-19-2009, 09:18 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
+1. I'm with you.
Of course you are.

Wait, did I just read you complaining about this camera because you don't like having to buy AA batteries? I don't think you're allowed to agree with monochrome.
09-19-2009, 09:26 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
Of course you are.

Wait, did I just read you complaining about this camera because you don't like having to buy AA batteries? I don't think you're allowed to agree with monochrome.
You understand nothing. I say that small and compact LiOn battery is better for beginners and for low-end camera than AA.
The camera without WR and battery grip could be lighter and smaller without AA. Hoya decided not to change body of K-x.
It's cheaper.

P.S.
To shoot video with AA - very high power consumption. K-7 has NEW POWERFUL battery, 'cos K-7 has new processor and video mode.
09-19-2009, 09:27 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
You talk about the K200D as if it was a great success for Pentax. The truth is it was a good camera, but it was also a sort of oddball tweener camera price wise that didn't sell very well -- not as well as the K20D above it or the K-m below it.

You are correct that the K-x probably will not be the darling of the camera review sites. The K-m wasn't really beloved by Dpreview either for that matter. But look at the buzz surrounding the K-x, quotes like this will start popping up:

"Pentax redefines specs for value for entry level cameras"
"Pentax has lowest priced DSLR with HD video and live view"
"Pentax dSLR takes video to a new low price"
(various other versions of how cheap this camera is)
The quotes that matter are those that call it "broken":

Pentax K-x Digital Camera - Hands-On Preview - The Imaging Resource!

Everything else you quote is Pentax ad copy, not independent preview.

Bad word, cheap. Even today.

QuoteQuote:
This will be labeled to the consumer as a budget purchase,
If there is no K200D replacement, no, it will be given exactly the same market placement it has already received. Something in the middle.

it is common for reviewers and market analysts to reposition products where the market average demonstrates they should be, industry wording notwithstanding.

QuoteQuote:
therefore they will be prepared to accept certain limitations in order to spend less money. Pentax could have added $175 as you say and competed well with the Tli and the D5000, but then not only would they have to sell more to make a profit, they'd no longer be able to claim that they have the cheapest HD video dSLR in its class. It would just be another camera in its range. How would they differentiate that to non Pentax users? Different color schemes? Weatherproofing?
OK. So basically you mean that Pentax should just do what Canikon does, except a little cheaper?

That goes to the heart of the debate, doesn't it? What does Pentax stand for? Why not buy more brand insurance with the big guys?

Pentax must make a more expensive model with modestly improved featureas (WR, better AF, HDMI out) or drop the K-7 substantially, to get the mid-range consumer. A $600 gap is market foolish.

QuoteQuote:
I know you feel this strategy won't work, but let me give you a brief example why I think it might. I have a friend who is not into photography, but liked the photos I and my other photographer friends had taken, so she decided she wanted to get a dSLR. I tried to convince her to buy a refurbished $380 K200d from Best Buy, as I reasoned that this was a whole lot of camera for the money and she could match this with a decent lens for less than $600. A great deal, I thought.
No, this strategy will work, but only at the low end, not mid-range where there is a huge vacuum and a $600 price gap between models. There are enough initial poor comments and things missing to keep it out of the mid-range.

Very few companies in tech are profitable only at the low-end. They all need a strong middle. Where is the mid-range body? Where it the one that punches up to the D90 and down to the D5000?

QuoteQuote:
She listened to my advice, thanked me, and then a week later went and bought a new Nikon D40.

Why? She said she wanted to buy a camera for less than $500. For $100 more she could have had a much better camera, but for her purposes that was too much to spend.
Right, You just made my point. She bought a big name brand because it offered comfort she could not get from Pentax without pricing AND specing in a way that blew the D40 out of the water.

I went the other way. Dumped my D40 and bought a K200D. Why? Look at the feature set for the price. BAck then, at that price point, Pentax had more features than the other guys. Now, big, big, big hole.

QuoteQuote:
Camera consumers do read reviews, and they may be swayed by a lack of red confirmation points. But those same reviews, even if mostly negative, will have to admit that the specs of the K-x are fantastic for the price, which is exactly what the K-x is designed to be. Even if it isn't a smashing success, I wouldn't be surprised if it does better than the Olympus E620, which the critics love, just because the E620 does not have HD video.
Actually market data shows now that almost 80% of people read online reviews. They are very powerful gatekeepers.

It will wreck the non-video E-620, but Oly is rumoured to have an upgrade soon.

But……for the non-vieo person, we're back to the "what is entry level?" price point issue, and that price point is now clearly well below what Pentax defines as DSLR entry level.

If the market does not take to video (small chance IMO) then Pentax is over-priced and niche. you have no choice because they've shut down production on the non-video models. I agree with that risk BTW.

QuoteQuote:
True, this leaves K200D users who want to upgrade but don't want to spend $1,000 plus in limbo unless they switch systems. But if this group wants to upgrade on the cheap, why not buy the still very good K20D?
Because they want video and a by up to the D5000/T1i feature set (or even D90) without compromise. Have you tried the Canon AF recently? Beats the Safox 8 system.

This is also the group who spend mucho $$$ on after-market lenses and accessories. Your friend with the D40? No. She purely made Nikon money at Pentax's expense.

QuoteQuote:
I hope Pentax does add a camera in the $700-900 price range. Personally I think they should drop the K-7 to this range by next year, then add a new flag ship.

We'll see.
We will. Pentax will tread water with this model partly because it has a few publicized flaws, the T1i and D5000 can and will price match (or close enough with their brand comfort level), and a lot of mid-range consumers will choose other brands. The thunder from M4/3 also has to be evaluated.
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