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09-19-2009, 09:37 PM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
You understand nothing. I say that small and compact LiOn battery is better for beginners and for low-end camera than AA.
The camera without WR and battery grip could be lighter and smaller without AA. Hoya decided not to change body of K-x.
It's cheaper.

P.S.
To shoot video with AA - very high power consumption. K-7 has NEW POWERFUL battery, 'cos K-7 has new processor and video mode.
Just stop talking.

09-19-2009, 09:49 PM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No, I did not.

I said that reviewers and retailers were explaining it as such, as were many consumers online.

It does not matter what Pentax says; what matters is what the market and its gatekeepers say.

We've also heard through Ned Bunnell hearsay on this board that there is no K200D replacement until after Spring 2010, which means there is no replacement. It's a 2-model shop going through the bulk of the sales season.

That can only mean that the K-x has to do double duty as the entry-level and mid-range.

Well there ya go...I guess he just missed a zero...

Apparently I hit something vital ;-)

And for those who say that video is the deal-breaker, this only emphasizes the point.
Actually, you do keep trotting out the K200d comparisons. You are implicitly insisting that the Kx is the K200d. And you know full well you are. And now repeating hearsay as more "evidence." This actually is marketing 101 - repeat something enough times and people believe it. And the review sites are not "gatekeepers" (nice term though). The social networks are a stronger bias for these type of purchases.

As far as the "market" - they will see video and say, "wow, new and better camera." For most of the target, that and the color seals the deal. The rest of the hand wringing is for gear freaks and people who like to pontificate on the interwebs.

You can use your "well reasoned" market analysis to prop up your dislike of the focus point display, but the reality is that there are multiple markets, multiple approaches, and certainly multiple opinions. I understand your point about the review sites, but I'm willing to bet that "fixing" this "downgrade" would have pushed the Kx into the next price point. And Pentax is rolling the dice that price beats this feature. In the current market "value" is skewed towards "price." Give a wow-feature (video) and a colorful case and keep the price low and you sell units. It is all about differentiation. The color bodies do just that. The video helps. I bet the AF points become largely lost in the noise, and again, you have to consider the alternative. "Fixed" AF points and a $749 price point (my WAG)? Or as-is at $649. Time will tell.
09-19-2009, 09:51 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
Just stop talking.
Are you Nazi? Or member of totalitarian sect?
09-19-2009, 09:54 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Are you Nazi? Or member of totalitarian sect?
Now you're comparing me to a Nazi because I tried to make you look like less of an idiot?

Really, stop fawning over the K200D and why the K-x won't ever be as good as it. You said that you don't like the camera, and you don't need to give 50 reasons why each page. Some of us don't mind the changes that Pentax has made, and actually like them a lot more...so come on, don't ruin it for the rest of us.

09-19-2009, 09:55 PM   #200
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And in the end, if Pentax doesn't offer what you want, then switch systems. It really is that simple. After a couple of shoots I decided I wanted FF. I didn't come here and piss and moan about what Pentax does or doesn't do. I did my research and bought a 5D2. Much less annoying to the natives. I'm still trying to sort out my "good" street cam and it may be a Kx or K7. Or something else. No biggie...
09-19-2009, 10:48 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Here's how consumer markets work.

If you take the 2008 September $650 K200D and it has a set of features that got terrific reviews (it did), and then lay it out by the K-x and compare features, you would note that the K-x loses some core functions and switches compared to the K200D.
True, while adding others. You still haven't explained why you think this is a relevant comparison, though. The K20D is also around $650. The K10D can be found for significantly less. Do you demand that Pentax's entry level camera include all of their features as well? Do you think the rest of the world is that naive?

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 09-19-2009 at 11:17 PM.
09-19-2009, 10:52 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I say that small and compact LiOn battery is better for beginners and for low-end camera than AA.
Just because *you* prefer proprietary Li-Ion batteries doesn't make them "better". Some prefer proprietary Li-Ion batteries, others prefer AA's. Simple as that.
09-19-2009, 11:02 PM   #203
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QuoteQuote:
The quotes that matter are those that call it "broken":

Pentax K-x Digital Camera - Hands-On Preview - The Imaging Resource!

Everything else you quote is Pentax ad copy, not independent preview.

Bad word, cheap. Even today.
There you go again placing the ultimate value on the website reviews given to a camera. I conceded that the reviews will probably note the omission of red points.

The K200D as you said pleased a lot of reviewers, yet it didn't sell very well. The K20D got good reviews but it was also a disappointing seller. Good reviews don't necessarily correlate to the success of a product, though I will concede that they certainly help.

And cheap may be a bad word. Is affordable one, too? I don't think so.

QuoteQuote:
If there is no K200D replacement, no, it will be given exactly the same market placement it has already received. Something in the middle.

It is common for reviewers and market analysts to reposition products where the market average demonstrates they should be, industry wording notwithstanding.
Reviewers and market analysts won't be the people buying this camera.

Also, reviewers commonly make mistakes of comparing one camera to another when they shouldn't. It's happened with reviews of every Pentax camera that I can remember. Usually because Pentax can't afford to have as many models out as their competitors so they find themselves in between model categories defined by the larger companies.

QuoteQuote:
OK. So basically you mean that Pentax should just do what Canikon does, except a little cheaper?
In this case, yes. In all cases, not necessarily.

My argument is not so much what Pentax should do, it's what I believe they are doing with the K-x, which is to try to capture the lowest price point for HD video. If this was their goal, which I believe it was, it makes sense for them to omit the features that would have made it a true K200D replacement, including red focus points.

QuoteQuote:
That goes to the heart of the debate, doesn't it? What does Pentax stand for? Why not buy more brand insurance with the big guys?
Why indeed? Maybe, in this case, because it would save you a few hundred dollars?

Some of the things I think Pentax stands for and has stood for for a long time: Small, quirky, good image quality, good value for the money although not necessarily inexpensive.

I don't think the K-x violates any of these precepts.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax must make a more expensive model with modestly improved featureas (WR, better AF, HDMI out) or drop the K-7 substantially, to get the mid-range consumer. A $600 gap is market foolish.
I would also personally like to see something in between the K-x and the K-7, but what defines these gaps? Why does Pentax have to have a model at every price range? How about Pentax acts like Sony and offer what seems like 9 different camera bodies now.

While we're at it, Pentax lacks a body at the plus $1,300 range, at the plus $1,700 range, another at the plus $2,000 range, at the mid $2,000 range, at the nearly $3,000 range, at the $5,000 plus professional range. Why can they have no models at all these competitive levels yet a gap between $650 and $1250 is foolish?

In other words, it would be nice if Pentax could afford to have a camera at every price range, but they tend to have to pick their fights.

What hurt the K200D, in fact, is it got lodged between the K-m and the K20D. Also it inherited its sensor from the K10D, which many people already (and still are) happy with. It's not enough just to have a camera at a price range, it has to offer something different.

QuoteQuote:
No, this strategy will work, but only at the low end, not mid-range where there is a huge vacuum and a $600 price gap between models. There are enough initial poor comments and things missing to keep it out of the mid-range.

Very few companies in tech are profitable only at the low-end. They all need a strong middle. Where is the mid-range body? Where it the one that punches up to the D90 and down to the D5000?
Well technically, the K-x punches up at the D5000 and the D90 on specs while the K-7 punches down at both. The K-x also strikes down against the Nikon D3000 and the Canon XSI and XT. Again, would it be nice for there to be something in between the D5000 and the D90? Yes. And that still could happen.

That's not really a mark against the K-x, though

QuoteQuote:
Right, You just made my point. She bought a big name brand because it offered comfort she could not get from Pentax without pricing AND specing in a way that blew the D40 out of the water.
Now wait a second here, I must protest. You can argue my anecdote was not valid, but you can't conjure motivations from my key witness without cross examination

Brand may have factored in, but from what she reported to me, price was the key.

QuoteQuote:
I went the other way. Dumped my D40 and bought a K200D. Why? Look at the feature set for the price. BAck then, at that price point, Pentax had more features than the other guys. Now, big, big, big hole.
It didn't really help the K200D become a best seller, did it? In fact, through the lifespan of both cameras, the D40 was in its prime and was one of, if not the, best selling DSLR cameras, even though a camera like even the K100D Super would have offered better features for the money.

Again, this is because the D40 offered, and still does offer, a great value to beginners for the price.

QuoteQuote:
Actually market data shows now that almost 80% of people read online reviews. They are very powerful gatekeepers.
They can be influential, especially with Pentax not having a lot of shelf space. I will contend that more people that will be interested in the K-x (beginners, people wanting to upgrade from point and shoots) will read reviews on non-photography sites, which I will further contend will not be so hard on the lack of focus confirm points.

You know, a place like CNet, where they'll line up the specs of the entry level cameras in nice looking charts, and some guy browsing along will ponder to himself "Why am I going to pay $150 more for the D5000 when the K-x has better specs?"

QuoteQuote:
It will wreck the non-video E-620, but Oly is rumoured to have an upgrade soon.
Well when they do, that will be a different comparison. My point was that even a critical darling that is arguably the best in its (entry level) class will be beaten by a camera like the K-x, even though the K-x is missing the red focus confirm dots.

QuoteQuote:
But……for the non-vieo person, we're back to the "what is entry level?" price point issue, and that price point is now clearly well below what Pentax defines as DSLR entry level.

If the market does not take to video (small chance IMO) then Pentax is over-priced and niche. you have no choice because they've shut down production on the non-video models. I agree with that risk BTW.
First off, much to the dismay of purists, the market is taking to video, and I don't see that changing any time soon. How many cameras have been introduced this year that haven't had it?

Secondly, the fact that there is a price point below the K-x without video just shows even more that it is almost impossible for Pentax to have a camera in every price range just because that price range happens to exist.

QuoteQuote:
We will. Pentax will tread water with this model partly because it has a few publicized flaws, the T1i and D5000 can and will price match (or close enough with their brand comfort level), and a lot of mid-range consumers will choose other brands. The thunder from M4/3 also has to be evaluated.
If what you say in this final paragraph is true, I don't see how a K200D replacement is going to help things at all.

09-19-2009, 11:23 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I went the other way. Dumped my D40 and bought a K200D. Why? Look at the feature set for the price. BAck then, at that price point, Pentax had more features than the other guys. Now, big, big, big hole.
Not at all. The K-x is that camera. It just happens to lack one particular feature you want. It's still spec'ed considerably higher than the competition - including the K200D, if you choose to look at it that way - overall. It's ridiculous and illogical to point to this *one* feature the K-x lacks compared to the others when I can point to a *dozen* the others lack compared to the K-x.
09-20-2009, 01:51 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Just because *you* prefer proprietary Li-Ion batteries doesn't make them "better". Some prefer proprietary Li-Ion batteries, others prefer AA's. Simple as that.
I prefer AA, because I have battery grip and WR camera - K200D.
09-20-2009, 01:54 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
Now you're comparing me to a Nazi because I tried to make you look like less of an idiot?
You're trying to stop my mouth and close your ears not to hear another opinion.
09-20-2009, 02:02 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
And in the end, if Pentax doesn't offer what you want, then switch systems. It really is that simple.
It's not easy. I like only Pentax lenses. It's big problem.
I tried other systems (40D, D200, E420, D50, 5D, S3pro) - it's hard to switch.
09-20-2009, 02:08 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Not at all. The K-x is that camera. It just happens to lack one particular feature you want. It's still spec'ed considerably higher than the competition - including the K200D, if you choose to look at it that way - overall. It's ridiculous and illogical to point to this *one* feature the K-x lacks compared to the others when I can point to a *dozen* the others lack compared to the K-x.
That's what I thought after looking at the K-X specs in detail.
The bright colours are the fun part.
Overall, it is a very highly specified camera, all at a very attractive price.
ISO up to 12800, 1/6000s shutter speed, In-camera HDR, etc. etc... And don't get too hung up about "its just SAFOX VIII." Going by the K-M experience, Pentax has made quite a lot of improvements to it, even before the K-7.

As I wrote in another thread, if I were 15 years younger, I'd probably jump at this opportunity...

As for the AF points - I tried it out on my K-7 just now with the AF-point LEDs switched off. By now I know by heart where the 11 focus areas sit.
You know what ? - its no big deal in most situations
Nice to have, helpful if you are following a moving object. Doesn't stop you from taking good photos if they aren't there...
09-20-2009, 02:40 AM   #209
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at first i thought, hrmm no af indicators is bad.... but then again....who cares about the af indicators? any photographer worth a damn uses the centre point or knows where the points are anyway.

and any total newb uses the big screen in live view mode.

anyone who thinks they need it probably does not you can can go the newb or pro way and get the same result :P

What it comes down to is not wanting to change the way you do things in which case your old camera is fine

Last edited by WerTicus; 09-20-2009 at 02:45 AM.
09-20-2009, 03:00 AM   #210
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Nobody talks about K-X's bigger sensor, 2mm on the each side, 12MP, in theory K-X will be very good on DR because of lesser pixel density, maybe it will better than K7. We'll see the results soon, I might get a K-X instead of K-7, the only thing matters to me is IQ. And the only thing lacks on K-x will be PC-Synch socket for me. I am getting remote flash synch stuff anyway. Oh one more thing, rotational WR would be nicer too.

We'll see.

Aristophanes: Pentax did this camera to offer market a lighter and cheaper but a decent camera with >10MP, it's not aimed to photographers, but it aimed the not photographer photographers, and the snap shooters etc. so IMO downgrade - upgrade comparisons with K200D is pointless. I believe after Christmas K-x body will sell less than 400 USD on the market, this tells the whole story...

Main complaint to Pentax from us should be lack of a FF camera here, I am not holding my breath but it will be with us like less than 2 years I guess.

Last edited by cbaytan; 09-20-2009 at 03:06 AM. Reason: mistakes
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