Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-20-2009, 03:13 PM   #226
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Which statistics do you have that support this? Virtually every report I saw showed it underperforming expectations pretty significantly; one of Pentax's most disappointing DSLR's in that respect, in fact.
I'm not sure how big, but on Flickr the K200D does very well for a Pentax, coming in very close to the K20D.

The problem between the K10d/K100 series is that they were good enough to span 2 generations of first time DSLR buyers. You here that here all the time: "Should I upgrade my K10?"

The K2xxx series stalled because of timing, not technically. They both got very good overall reviews, if the AF system was maligned. Sadly, the later probably had something to do with keeping Pentax on the fringe as opposed to mainstream.

The K-M/2000, even accounting for being on the market less than one year, does terribly. I suspect ho-hum to poor reviews eclipsed its price point and convinced people to fork over another $100 on another brand, or stick with the big guys. That's always the low-end problem: cut corners to get the lowball ranking, get hammered by the guy who is a marginal cost above you, just.

Flickr's camera finder is a phenomenal database for tracking after-market usage as the data set is very, very large.

I am impressed by the Optio line and its presence on Flickr. The distinction (until recently) between Pentax and Canon, Fuji, etc. based on durability and WR, served them very well. It says that lots of people shop on that spec. A good decade into digital media enough people have had enough of flimsy products. Photos are precious, so the camera is thought to be as well. Look how people carry them.

Now that Pentax makes every Optio model 720p HD compatible, they're clearly focussed on being on the curve or slightly ahead f it. Something to build on, if they cold improve the sensor (Buy from Fuji, seeing as how they've become mercenary in their sourcing?).

09-20-2009, 04:53 PM   #227
Veteran Member
creampuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,955
QuoteOriginally posted by ryan s Quote
... have NEVER found a set of Eneloops in a store...I have to order them online. They're made in China so it's not like America has a monopoly on them...
Just a point of clarification regarding ENELOOPS...
The Eneloop charger is Made in China but the Eneloop batteries are Made in Japan.
09-20-2009, 05:16 PM   #228
Veteran Member
creampuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,955
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Which statistics do you have that support this? Virtually every report I saw showed it underperforming expectations pretty significantly; one of Pentax's most disappointing DSLR's in that respect, in fact.
+1 on that.
Imo the K200D was a marketing test case that failed to sell in numbers at the retail level. Decent specs aside, most camera buyers either wanted a basic entry level DSLR (price sensitive newbies) while the enthusiast would have bypassed the K200D and gone straight for the higher spec K20D. That meant a sliver of a market segment for the K200D to capture. Of course K200D users will vehemently protest any suggestion that their model was an evolutionary dead end but the fact that sales were sluggish, it had short model life and not even any firmware upgrade is telling.
09-20-2009, 05:40 PM   #229
Pentaxian
ryan s's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Madison, WI
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,370
QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Just a point of clarification regarding ENELOOPS...
The Eneloop charger is Made in China but the Eneloop batteries are Made in Japan.
Just had a look...you're absolutely right.
QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
+1 on that.
Imo the K200D was a marketing test case that failed to sell in numbers at the retail level. Decent specs aside, most camera buyers either wanted a basic entry level DSLR (price sensitive newbies) while the enthusiast would have bypassed the K200D and gone straight for the higher spec K20D. That meant a sliver of a market segment for the K200D to capture. Of course K200D users will vehemently protest any suggestion that their model was an evolutionary dead end but the fact that sales were sluggish, it had short model life and not even any firmware upgrade is telling.
It was a smaller K10D, in essence. I found the K-m kind of out there as well due to having the same sensor as the other 2.

In my opinion, I think most who upgraded to the K20 wanted the 14MP sensor with better ISO performance, better AF, etc, instead of the same Sony 10MP in a different body. Just my thoughts.

09-20-2009, 10:21 PM   #230
Pentaxian
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,994
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I'm not sure how big, but on Flickr the K200D does very well for a Pentax, coming in very close to the K20D.

...

The K-M/2000, even accounting for being on the market less than one year, does terribly. I suspect ho-hum to poor reviews eclipsed its price point and convinced people to fork over another $100 on another brand, or stick with the big guys. That's always the low-end problem: cut corners to get the lowball ranking, get hammered by the guy who is a marginal cost above you, just.

Flickr's camera finder is a phenomenal database for tracking after-market usage as the data set is very, very large.

I am impressed by the Optio line and its presence on Flickr. The distinction (until recently) between Pentax and Canon, Fuji, etc. based on durability and WR, served them very well. It says that lots of people shop on that spec. A good decade into digital media enough people have had enough of flimsy products. Photos are precious, so the camera is thought to be as well. Look how people carry them.
Interesting use of Flickr's camera finder, but I'd guess that Flickr's audience is skewed towards more serious enthusiasts than the general public. Canon's top 10 cameras, for example, are all dSLRs, including the 5DII, even though P&S cameras probably outsell them by a large margin.

Ultimately, the K-M/2000 may be under-represented because of the nature of it's owners, not actual sales figures. It would interesting to know actual comparative sales figures to see if Flickr is in fact a fair proxy....
09-20-2009, 11:35 PM   #231
Moderator
Site Supporter
Blue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida Hill Country
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,166
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Interesting use of Flickr's camera finder, but I'd guess that Flickr's audience is skewed towards more serious enthusiasts than the general public. Canon's top 10 cameras, for example, are all dSLRs, including the 5DII, even though P&S cameras probably outsell them by a large margin.

Ultimately, the K-M/2000 may be under-represented because of the nature of it's owners, not actual sales figures. It would interesting to know actual comparative sales figures to see if Flickr is in fact a fair proxy....
The Flickr data set is large as is pbase. It may be skewed towards the enthusiasts, but that is the demographic that Pentax is trying to sell to. Plus, there are a lot of people there with P&S type cameras as well as vintage cameras so it is a pretty good bench mark.
09-21-2009, 03:33 AM   #232
RaduA
Guest




The first signs of a huge interest for this camera in Japan!

QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Attn moderators:

This is not the kind of attitude we all deserve here. IMO I understand Aristophanes, he loves Pentax so much, he just want to see it just better, just better, no matter what. Now look at this vulgar indecency. Would you please someone to take preventive measures?
You can report any posts without writing a message here and it is your right to do so. The Greek play writer self entitled marketing God has brought this upon himself because he harps the same arguments on at least couple of fora (could be more but those two I frequent myself) and is blind to all other sides. I am not talking about an opinion but a campaign with dozens or hundreds of posts.

K-x IS NOT a K200D replacement it has a lower starting MSRP by a significant margin (150 USD), has some minuses compared to the K200D but also a lot of pluses and most people here regardless if they want one or not feel that it will be a bit commercial hit. Besides I believe it is the first time when people talk about a new Pentax camera as a perfect gift for our girlfriends, wives or children which is very cool IMO.

And all signs (quantifiable unlike mr. A's "feelings") point out in the same direction like the PRE ORDERS on Amazon.jp:

- 17th place the Beige dual kit variant;
- 33rd place the Navy Blue double zoom
- 34th place the White double zoom
- 42nd place the Mauve kit version.

Well I imagine that all the other except black versions have the damn illuminated in VF AF points !

Radu
09-21-2009, 03:52 AM   #233
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
I've tried to focus without AF indicator in VF. If you use central point, no any problem.
But it's not very comfort. Anyway, not bad.

If you want to choose other one - it's some kind of big visual discomfort -
to choose the points at LCD and don't see it in VF. It's out of my mind. Sorry.

Want to pre-order K-x as second camera, but I'm still in perplexity... There is time to think.

Hard to pay money for camera which could be discomfort.

09-21-2009, 04:56 AM   #234
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Indiana
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 14,924
I would just like to add that reviews are only as good as the reviewers. As much as I like DP Review, they focus on in camera JPEGs over everything else. It doesn't matter if they are tweakable, if they show artifacts or, are soft, they ding a camera. This has happened for every Pentax camera I can remember (maybe not the K100?). That and the lack of an orientation sensor seemed to be what made them down grade the K2000.

All of that said, the K2000 sold very well. My brother bought one, mainly for the low price and is very pleased. I can honestly say that I have never heard him complain about the lack of selectable auto focus points, but then again he is the target for the camera, coming from a point and shoot background where nothing of the sort existed.

The same arguments have appeared on both sides of this debate several times. No one fortunately has been compared to Hitler yet, although one person has been dubbed a Nazi. It strikes me that this debate is almost over.
09-21-2009, 05:08 AM   #235
Veteran Member
cbaytan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Trabzon/Turkey
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,010
QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
You can report any posts without writing a message here and it is your right to do so. The Greek play writer self entitled marketing God has brought this upon himself because he harps the same arguments on at least couple of fora (could be more but those two I frequent myself) and is blind to all other sides. I am not talking about an opinion but a campaign with dozens or hundreds of posts.

Radu
It took 3-4 minutes to me to remember, and somehow you somehow catches my message before I deleted.

About Aristophanes, Do you know which I believe who is person most possessed with the Pentax brand? RiceHigh. Look it his recent post in his list, you will understand what I am trying to say. Attitude towards other Pentax fans is other story, which I am with you.

9/20/2009 5:05 PM
Someone wrote:
> > I have read your article for DA-15, and I have stopped purchase the Pentax gear before your article. I guess that you are a actual Pentax's fansboy, as you bought a poor QC lens.
> >
Ricehigh wrote:

> Yes, I admit that I am. And I just can't help. In fact, I still buy Pentax stuff and I still want them to be good!
09-21-2009, 05:20 AM   #236
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bors, Sweden
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,165
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would just like to add that reviews are only as good as the reviewers. As much as I like DP Review, they focus on in camera JPEGs over everything else. It doesn't matter if they are tweakable, if they show artifacts or, are soft, they ding a camera.
That's kind of funny considering how many people on here slam "Canikon" for having "smeared detail" when that's just a default NR setting for the JPEG.
09-21-2009, 06:16 AM   #237
Veteran Member
creampuff's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,955
Presented at K-x Japan press launch.

How the new K-x compares to other cameras at the 100,000 Yen and 150,000 Yen price points (entry and middle class level). Comparison based on megapixels, ISO, fps and maximum shutter speed.



To improve resolution over the K-m, a change to a new CMOS sensor
09-21-2009, 07:07 AM   #238
Pentaxian
Moderator Emeritus




Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,648
Aristophanes, just likes to hammer the same points over and over again but completely misses the point. He's convinced himself he's right even if he's not. He wants a K-7 at $649.00 because he's too cheap to buy the camera he really wants. This camera was never targeted to him or many of us unless as a second body to K10/K200D/K20D and K-7 owners.

As a side note. Have you ever handled a Nikon D5000? Fisher Price makes a more solid toy. Sure nice feature set but what an uninspired, cheap feeling camera. If a consumer had the KX beside the D5000 and a fair explaination of the features. Pentax would win. That's the target market.

Being from Halifax and of Greek background myself, he's an embarrassment. Sure his points are well reasoned to him but completely off the mark. Yelling louder isn't going to make a mistaken point of view correct.

Pentax didn't look at it's own past line in isolation and only build a camera to be a replacment for a particular model. They looked at the market. (there just happens to be a few other brands out there... duh).

They said to themselves:
1) "We need a camera at $649.00 with a kit lens that will make an impression. Now what can we afford to cram in it and still turn a profit?"
2) "So what are the current hot features that attract a first time buyer that is upgrading from a P&S?"
3) "What can we do to make the camera noticed and attractive to own? What features would a first time Dslr owner or P&S upgrade customer want and not want?"


1)Give it some funky colours. Package it with a kit lens since most P&S cameras mysteriously come with a lens attached and this consumer expects that. That alone tells you who this camera is positioned toward.

2) Video. Flashy looking bodies (aka, Apple products, cell phones etc.), High Mp count, LV, face detection.
Things like WS, AF points, Top LCD’s and proprietary batteries are not even on the top 20 of most P&S users hit list. (Waterproof is an entirely different feature set and consumer).

3) Colours, Video, Live View AA batteries, Face detection.
Yes AA batteries. I shoot weddings every week. You have no idea how many frustrated P&S owners (and a few DSLR owners too) have come to me half way or near the end of my day and asked to buy copies of my images because their P&S cameras died half way through the service. All of them use a dedicated battery. I have told people about the KM/K100 etc cameras (I carried a *istD until recently and shown many people) with AA’s and they all say the same thing. That they would buy a camera that offered that ability in a heartbeat.


Really think about it. You are a casual shooter that wants better quality than a P&S. You want small as you can find like your P&S body. You want it convenient and to have video. Some cool factor would be nice and the colours seem to offer that. Face detection worked OK on your P&S and you want that. You like the idea of AA batteries because you can’t count the number of times your P&S died at something important or on vacation. Being able to get spare batteries at a gas station makes sense. Plus you have 6 rechargers at home and think it’s a great “green” idea over Alkalines.

Do you seriously think AF points means anything to this consumer? Not one bit. If you did a survey of 10,000 P&S owners of the top 20 features they want in a DSLR, 99.9999% would not know what the heck you were asking regarding AF points. They will turn on the multi point selection and fire away for the next 3-4 years without thinking about it.


For myself, I’ve shot over 125,000 digital frames and used the AF point selector about 10 times. Much ado about nothing.


Aristophanes, get off your high horse.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 09-21-2009 at 09:46 AM.
09-21-2009, 07:09 AM   #239
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
How the new K-x compares to other cameras at the 100,000 Yen and 150,000 Yen price points (entry and middle class level). Comparison based on megapixels, ISO, fps and maximum shutter speed.

It's typical marketing. I saw it already. They name K-x "MIDDLE CLASS" camera. Isn't it funny?
No any words that it's camera for beginners, first of all.
09-21-2009, 07:18 AM   #240
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Aristophanes, just likes to hammer the same points over and over again but completely misses the point. He's convinced himself he's right even if he's not. He wants a K-7 at $649.00 because he's too cheap to buy the camera he really wants. This camera was never targeted to him or many of us unless as a second body to K10/K200D/K20D and K-7 owners.



They said to themselves:
1) "We need a camera at $649.00 with a kit lens that will make an impression. Now what can we afford to cram in it and still turn a profit?"
2) "So what are the current hot features that attract a first time buyer that is upgrading from a P&S?"
3) "What can we do to make the camera noticed and attractive to own? What features would a first time Dslr owner or P&S upgrade customer want and not want?
The press-conference of Hoya pushes your theory aside
ƒyƒ“ƒ^ƒbƒNƒX�A�uK-x�v”*•\‰‚�gƒRƒŒƒWƒƒƒiƒCƒ�ƒ{ƒ‚ƒfƒ‹�h‚”*•\ - ƒfƒWƒJƒ�Watch

K-x is new middle-end camera for EVERYONE, K-7 is high-end.

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
For myself, I’ve shot over 125,000 digital frames and used the AF point selector about 10 times. Much ado about nothing.


It's not good reference for you as photograher.



The official position of Hoya means NO ANY K200D replacement. IMO.

Last edited by ogl; 09-21-2009 at 07:26 AM.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, dslr, k-x, pentax, photography, review
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Macro Thoughts audio.mann Post Your Photos! 1 06-28-2010 08:09 AM
Having second thoughts on K-7. barondla Pentax DSLR Discussion 29 07-27-2009 09:35 PM
My thoughts on the K-7 Mikke Pentax DSLR Discussion 12 07-25-2009 02:50 AM
First thoughts... jct us101 Pentax DSLR Discussion 8 02-10-2009 06:59 PM
thoughts of beyond. distorted_vision Post Your Photos! 16 05-29-2008 03:26 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:53 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top