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05-23-2007, 09:59 AM   #16
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I agree that Phil's tests are biased, but not bcs of this!
As some others have said, when viewing an image on a monitor, DPI is irrelevant...


Last edited by Lazar; 05-23-2007 at 10:06 AM.
05-23-2007, 11:03 AM   #17
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I prefer Steve's Digicams - Main Menu to DPR. I like the way Steve reviews cameras and explains features better than DPR.
05-23-2007, 11:44 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by case sensitive Quote
I prefer Steve's Digicams - Main Menu to DPR. I like the way Steve reviews cameras and explains features better than DPR.
Steve's reviews are good if all you want is a laundry list of the features. If you want opinions on how they work, they are horrible. Steve never has a bad thing to say about any camera. At least Phil has the guts to call out issues he sees (we may disagree with him, but at least he points them out).
05-23-2007, 11:58 AM   #19
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FWIW try posting a photo of the same physical onscreen size, say 3"x6" at both 72dpi and 300dpi, you will see a difference in sharpness because the 300dpi photo will have many more pixels, allowing more detail than the 72dpi photo.

If you allow them to be whatever size they want to be, then there is no difference, one will just be much larger than the other.

Tom

05-23-2007, 12:16 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ccallana Quote
Steve's reviews are good if all you want is a laundry list of the features. If you want opinions on how they work, they are horrible. Steve never has a bad thing to say about any camera. At least Phil has the guts to call out issues he sees (we may disagree with him, but at least he points them out).
I've yet to see a solid example of bias beyond "he doesn't like my camera"! If you think Phil hates Pentax, take a look at the glowing K100D review (which helped sell me on Pentax). Obviously the reviewers are human and make mistakes and have their own preferences, but I haven't seen anything that indicates an intent to do anything but provide fair and unbiased reviews. Just because some comment or other about your preferred camera seems wrong doesn't automatically mean they're out to get you.
05-23-2007, 12:39 PM   #21
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Forget the DPI because it has little to no relevance except the K10 jumps from 240 to 72 for no reason but the image sizes stay the same (sometimes).

The problem was the aperture settings, lighting and camera posistion/angle along with the dpi changes and image sizes.

That is why I asked you to download and see for yourself how poorly each test was done. When you need to use +2 exposure compensation on a 1/30 at f8 on a Pentax K10 why is it +1 exposure comp on 1/60 at f9? At f9 shouldn't the 30D be at 1/15 if the light was the same or the K10 at 1/120 at f8? Whats wrong with his testing facility? Did all the lightbulbs go out in the place and all he had was a timex indiglo lighting the path to the test chart?

I'm glad people can be harsh to me for bringing forward some sort of truth and maybe explaining why the results are so off/inconsistent. All I anted to know is why it's so skewed against the Pentax equipment? People use these tests to make an informed purchase, sellers use this for recommending products to their customers (besides other things) "I" as a consumer would like to know what is the truth and nothing less.

And if someone says that people who are not intelligent enough to make their own decision thats rubbish because we're stopping people who could grow into great photographers but aren't the most accomplished shoppers nor techno savvy. I was never techno savvy, but I spent all my life at computers, cameras, consoles, electronics in general, but not everyone wants to be like that, they want the easy street and look at consumer reports or the internet for answers and with the largest online camera review site not having some sort of consistency, how can they make an informed purchase? Not everyone has a firend with a Pentax to try and see how wonderful it is, they have poor tests and non-controls to sway their ideals.

This site is about information and the products we love, but why should we stop others from loving it with us if they get poor information and go through life not knowing, which can be the saddest thing in life in my opinion.

Mo, if you feel the need to shut this thread and delete it, I'm fine with it and maybe I was off the deep end, but it's hard to sit and watch a great camera come back on the shelf because of a possibly skewed result.
05-23-2007, 01:01 PM   #22
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!!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Ok I can't keep this bottled up anymore as I have finally shed my last straw at the bias of DPR and Phils poor testing.

I've downloaded almost every image he placed on DPR in regards to camera tests and have found a lot of interesting facts that need to be heard and maybe enlighten us all on which camera is the best.

Everyone can follow this process as I did and hopefully someone can answer me this question, "why does Phil fear Pentax?"

Go to DPR and download all the RAW studio and Resolution charts from DPR and check the EXIF data by either using left-click>properties and check the summary tab or use abode bridge and check all the exif information embedded in his images.

Here are the strange pattern that has arisen from all the data:

All K10D images used were converted to 240dpi in scene test vs canon 30D and Phil admitted the K10D got more detail and all other aspects of the test were of almost even par (aperture and conversion etc.)

All K10D images in chart test were converted to 72dpi and compared to 300dpi images from canon, 240 from nikon and sony and now Pentax gets 3rd place. Other strange things is the 30D had shutter of 1/60 at f9 while the K10D had 1/30 at f8? Why? Poor lighting? SR was most likely on as well and on a tripod.

K100 images vs rebel xti were all converted to 72dpi vs 240/300 dpi of rebel and d50. Again Canon was amazing while the Pentax failed to impress.

I'm not going to say anything further about this because you can all look at on your own and come up with the same conclusions as I have, which is Phil is cheating everyone out of the truth. I think that this is ridiculous as millions flock to his site for information and all he is doing is feeding the masses crap about his staged test results.

Maybe someone is braver than I to bring this up over there, but whats the point he's dumb and so is DPR's reviews.

I'm going out to take pictures with my camera that does better than anything in it's class no matter what anyone says!
Why am I not surprised?
05-23-2007, 01:08 PM   #23
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Exposure compensation changes the iso, aperture, and/or shutterspeed. So if you already know that it was shot at iso100 f/8 1/30 then how it got there (via compensation on the metering) is irrelevant.

Also keep in mind that Canon's iso numbers are incorrect. Their sensors are a bit more sensitive than what they claim. Their iso 100 is more like 125.

Please, try to relax a bit before jumping to really outragous conclusions.

05-23-2007, 01:33 PM   #24
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Quote from the review of K10D

QuoteQuote:
Shots here are of our new 'version two' resolution chart which provides for measurement of resolution up to 4000 LPH (Lines Per Picture Height). A value of 20 equates to 2000 lines per picture height. For each camera the relevant prime lens was used. The chart is shot at a full range of apertures and the sharpest image selected. Studio light, cameras set to aperture priority (optimum aperture selected), image parameters default. Exposure compensation +0.7 EV to +1.3 EV (depending on the camera).
Look at the part where it says up to +1.3 EV after optimum aperture and lighting (drastic change for K10D) but the ACR and Pentax photo browser all say +2 EV?

Also looking at the K100D Phil gave it the advantage while taking the JPEG out of camera in Bright mode, while all other cameras were in standard. The K10 was standard as well, but the Nikon D80 had +2 contrast added to it. SR was off on the K10 in the resolution chart, but chart was misaligned compared to the other contestants. All resolution charts were taken in JPEG out of camera with stock firmware which gives the K10 the boot because softness was an issue in Jpeg out of camera in the beginning, but not anymore.


QuoteQuote:
For a (more) level playing field for comparison we also shot our studio scene in RAW mode with each camera and converted it using Adobe Camera RAW. Because Adobe Camera RAW applies different levels of sharpening to different cameras (this confirmed) we had to use the following workflow for these conversions:

* Load RAW file into Adobe Camera RAW (Auto mode disabled)
* Set Sharpness to 0 (all other settings left as default)
* Open file into Photoshop
* Apply a Unsharp mask: 80%, Radius 1.0, Threshold 0
* Save as a TIFF (for cropping) and as a JPEG quality 11 for download
The Exif data shows 25 noise level and 25 sharpness added in ACR 3.4? Not seeing his sharpness 0.

Also the canon had saturation adjustments in the green and blue of +6 each K10 had no such changes made. I thought everything was the same here as he said?

I've answered some of my own questions with deeper inspection of the images, but the constants are still very off here in certain areas and maybe someone here can help make sense of it because to me it seems to help make certain things look better than they seem and in other cases worse.

Does the amount of light, aperture, shutter speed, and other things effect the resulting test images? In my eyes and what is shown they can, but what can you make of it all or help me understand better?
05-23-2007, 06:50 PM   #25
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A few specific comments....

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Look at the part where it says up to +1.3 EV after optimum aperture and lighting (drastic change for K10D) but the ACR and Pentax photo browser all say +2 EV?
The part you quoted says they picked the best one of a range of settings. What's your cause to doubt that? Doesn't the fact that there's variance in fact *confirm* that that's what they're doing?

QuoteQuote:
Also looking at the K100D Phil gave it the advantage while taking the JPEG out of camera in Bright mode, while all other cameras were in standard. The K10 was standard as well, but the
Presumably, "natural" is the default on the other cameras, while "bright" is the default on the K100D. Either way, he was pretty happy with it, but actually suggests using Natural mode to avoid clipping in another part of the review, so I know that's taken into account in the final opinion.

QuoteQuote:
Nikon D80 had +2 contrast added to it. SR was off on the K10 in the resolution chart, but chart was misaligned compared to the other contestants. All resolution charts were taken in JPEG out
SR should be off. The tests are done on a tripod mount, where SR is actually counter-productive.

QuoteQuote:
of camera with stock firmware which gives the K10 the boot because softness was an issue in Jpeg out of camera in the beginning, but not anymore.
Yes, he specifically complains about the JPEG processing being sub-optimal compared to the camera's RAW output. SInce you're agreeing, what's the point again?

QuoteQuote:
Does the amount of light, aperture, shutter speed, and other things effect the resulting test images? In my eyes and what is shown they can, but what can you make of it all or help me understand better?
Clearly, the review does not provide all of the testing data obtained, but there's no reason to disbelieve the statement that they picked the best for each.
05-23-2007, 07:39 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
softness was an issue in Jpeg out of camera in the beginning, but not anymore.

What? What written source does this come from? K10D jpg processing translates the inherent RAW sharpness marginally into soft jpgs exactly the same as it always did. There were enough loud posters who did not want any pure improvement in the camera's jpeg processing to be more true to inherent RAW qualities. They thought it more important to scream that the jpg's were "good enough" already. The blind Pentax loyalty thing, and the simple act of screaming "good enough!" was actually preferential to even letting Pentax try to tweak the processing quality in a firmware update.

They saw this as an easy out, and did nothing to jpg softness, sticking to this "filmlike" marketing word at least until the next model comes out. Posters misleading others by mistakenly saying - "put the camera in bright mode" or "up the only-undershoot sharpening" just clouded the issue as that doesn't help, and can hurt image quality more than just improving the in-camera processing in firmware to begin with.

Out-of-camera jpg files are also more compressed to about 2.5-3MB compared to the D80/XTi, etc that only compresses them to 3.5-over 4MB for the same photo - 20% LESS compressed. No, compressing the K10D jpegs that much more scientifically can't have absolutely NO effect - especially if you instead use the word "minimal".

Pentax in firmware should have offered the option of better, sharper quality jpeg processing accuracy, and less compressed files - still allowing those screaming "good enough! good enough!" to choose the default lower quality.

Where did you get even one molecule of the idea that they did(or even care enough to want to)?

Last edited by mutley; 05-23-2007 at 07:48 PM.
05-23-2007, 08:36 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Also the canon had saturation adjustments in the green and blue of +6 each K10 had no such changes made. I thought everything was the same here as he said?
Canon chips make reds come out extra punchy so maybe he raised the green and blue to match. Although this ain't a good method because now Canon's Saturation is boosted +6 not only in the red but green and blue channels as well.

Phil's Bias can't really be helped. He like many others have fallen victim to Canon's grasp. Their advertising is widespread, their debut of the digital rebel made waves that resonate just as strongly today as they did when they first came out. Sure the market has changed but the general public still very much so believes that owning a Canon means punchy photos.

As much as I share your anger, I'm still a regular visitor to DPR and then occasionally Steves, DCR, and Imaging Resource. DPR's coverage is probably second to none followed by the latter three in any order. As biased as some of the content maybe, there isn't any other bunch of sites that release regular indepth reviews of both new and old cameras.
05-23-2007, 08:58 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Out-of-camera jpg files are also more compressed to about 2.5-3MB compared to the D80/XTi, etc that only compresses them to 3.5-over 4MB for the same photo - 20% LESS compressed. No, compressing the K10D jpegs that much more scientifically can't have absolutely NO effect - especially if you instead use the word "minimal".
Just because the files are smaller doesn't mean that they're automatically "worse". The quality of the algorithms used to compress make a significant difference, and programmers are always looking for way to do things more quickly with better results using fewer resources.

Even Canon themselves have made huge strides. You will probably find 8MP jpegs from a Canon 30D which are SMALLER storagewise than files coming from a 6MP EOS D60, and yet have fewer artifacts and higher resolution.

So, the relationship between file quality and compression ratio is not necessarily proportional. Two generations of cameras may produce the same file size but the newer one may have fewer artifacts, or both may produce an equal magnitude of artifacts, but the newer camera could create the image using less space/more compression.
05-23-2007, 09:11 PM   #29
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Different cameras meter differently (i.e. interpret scenes differently). Pentaxes do have a tendency to underexpose a bit, and similarly, Canons are notorious in my experience for overexposing slightly, creating lovely cyan or white skies. So adjustments are made to normalize them.

Also, one main bias DPR has, imho, is a brand-independent one towards image quality. High sharpness and low noise are favourable, and the cameras which happen to do that perhaps slightly better than others is Canon.

From a purely IQ point of view, Canons can be matched, but not beat very easily, and I'm speaking having used a handful of them before.

From a features/handling standpoint, I agree they're not emphasized enough. While purely subjective, I find Pentax SLRs a joy to use and needing to use two hands for most things on Canons and Nikons is confusing, though can be adapted to. I'd rather keep my left hand on the lens.

And then there's the issue of optics. That's the reason to choose a brand of camera. In an ideal world I'd like a nice large sensor in a 35mm Pentax mostly for the lack of cropping since I use lots of FA lenses. Might not be a big deal at first, but whenever I change lenses between a K100D and an MX, it's frustrating at times to note the differences.

Jeremy

QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
The problem was the aperture settings, lighting and camera posistion/angle along with the dpi changes and image sizes.

That is why I asked you to download and see for yourself how poorly each test was done. When you need to use +2 exposure compensation on a 1/30 at f8 on a Pentax K10 why is it +1 exposure comp on 1/60 at f9? At f9 shouldn't the 30D be at 1/15 if the light was the same or the K10 at 1/120 at f8? Whats wrong with his testing facility? Did all the lightbulbs go out in the place and all he had was a timex indiglo lighting the path to the test chart?

I'm glad people can be harsh to me for bringing forward some sort of truth and maybe explaining why the results are so off/inconsistent. All I anted to know is why it's so skewed against the Pentax equipment? People use these tests to make an informed purchase, sellers use this for recommending products to their customers (besides other things) "I" as a consumer would like to know what is the truth and nothing less.

And if someone says that people who are not intelligent enough to make their own decision thats rubbish because we're stopping people who could grow into great photographers but aren't the most accomplished shoppers nor techno savvy. I was never techno savvy, but I spent all my life at computers, cameras, consoles, electronics in general, but not everyone wants to be like that, they want the easy street and look at consumer reports or the internet for answers and with the largest online camera review site not having some sort of consistency, how can they make an informed purchase? Not everyone has a firend with a Pentax to try and see how wonderful it is, they have poor tests and non-controls to sway their ideals.

This site is about information and the products we love, but why should we stop others from loving it with us if they get poor information and go through life not knowing, which can be the saddest thing in life in my opinion.

Mo, if you feel the need to shut this thread and delete it, I'm fine with it and maybe I was off the deep end, but it's hard to sit and watch a great camera come back on the shelf because of a possibly skewed result.
05-24-2007, 12:39 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by ennacac Quote
FWIW try posting a photo of the same physical onscreen size, say 3"x6" at both 72dpi and 300dpi, you will see a difference in sharpness because the 300dpi photo will have many more pixels, allowing more detail than the 72dpi photo.

If you allow them to be whatever size they want to be, then there is no difference, one will just be much larger than the other.

Tom
One more time: for viewing a picture on your monitor, only the resolution is important, DPI is irrelevant...

If you have e.g. a 1024x768 image, whether it is 72 or 300dpi won't change how it looks on your screen, and changing the DPI of an image doesn't change it's resolution nor size.

Last edited by Lazar; 05-24-2007 at 01:50 AM.
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