Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-23-2009, 09:00 PM   #31
Veteran Member
madbrain's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 799
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by smc Quote
Is there a store around that you can pick up a K-7 and a K-x (K-m) and try both? The K-x might feel a lot different than what you are used too....but if AAs are what you are looking for, and it costs less....it might be for you.

Edit - from the last 2 posts....you might just want to wait a little longer to see if there is a replacement for the K200. I don't know if there will be one....but it sounds like it was the right camera for you and if you're happy with it still....waiting a little longer won't hurt...
Indeed, I am still happy with the K200D, but shooting video would really be a big plus, saving lots of weight and space to bring a Canon HD camcorder on trips, not to mention its awful Lion battery and charger.

I will be waiting for the next Pentax. I hope they are listening and come up with something suitable. I know I'm not the only K200D user who wants to upgrade .

10-23-2009, 09:17 PM   #32
Veteran Member
madbrain's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 799
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by kristoffon Quote
If price is an issue at all get a dirt-cheap brand new K20D. (Unless you really want video, then the K-x is a choice).

If the price of the K7 is not an issue, that's the clear choice.
I did not list price as the main issue. But convenience is. Dirt cheap or not, the K20D only adds MP, which I listed only as the 3rd and least important thing I want to change camera for. But it also uses much less convenient LiOn batteries.
And it has no video and barely higher fps. I never considered the K20D even before the K7 and Kx were released.

QuoteQuote:
I can't take seriously your criticism of li-ion batteries though. It's a mature technology, they last forever in DSLRs that only suck a little current when you actually take the shot. If in doubt, get an extra couple batteries.
I have seen the problems with LiOn over and over with camcorders and cell phones. They are well documented issues . And the inconvenience factor of carrying multiple chargers and buying more proprietary batteries is quite large.

For the record, I bought a $999 Canon camcorder in march. It comes with a 700 mAh battery. That lasts maybe 40 minutes when using the highest bitrate. If I want more, I can buy a $199 (not a typo!) Canon extended LiOn battery. Instead , I bought a non-OEM Lion battery. It performs poorly. The camcorder still runs out of power all the time. And both the small canon OEM LiOn battery and the non-OEM larger one self discharge incredibly fast (unusable at 1 month on shelf!).
Maybe the large Canon OEM one would be better, but for $199 I could buy about 80 eneloops ...

Same story with my 2003 Canon MiniDV camcorder. I have 5 LiOn batteries, only one still charged when I sold it earlier this year ...
Same story with my sister's Canon camcorder as well - she had a bunch of spare LiOn - all dead.

Pentax seems to be able to make a camera that works on either AA or LiOn. The K7 does that, provided you add a battery grip. If they gave the same ability to the camera itself without grip, maybe we could end all these battery discussions and reconcile everyone. But right now the K7 needs 6 AAs, so that would presumably make the camera too large. Maybe the K7 needs higher voltage.

But Kx can operate with just 4 AAs, and it still has video & higher fps. I don't see any technological reason Pentax can't add weather sealing and a battery connector to the Kx.
10-23-2009, 10:44 PM   #33
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicago suburbs
Photos: Albums
Posts: 848
K200d

I have to agree with madbrain. I really like my K200D and grip. I also like the AA eneloops. I have had similar experience with LiOn on the wife's Canon SD500.
What I noticed is:
The Canon batteries seem to last forever if we used up the charge and promptly recharged them. IE: regular use (spring and summer).
But if she shot a few pics and then left the camera to sit for 3 weeks or so between use, over time, the capacity of the battery seems to diminish, until it will no longer hold a charge. Then she tells me to get a battery that works.
Canon brand batteries seem to do better than off-brand, but at a much higher price.
I bought an Olympus C5050 in 2002 - the NiMH AAs that came with it still work!

Another plus for the K200:
When I got my K200 it was the best camera with Auto-Pict. My wife will not shoot anything that requires manual control. Auto-Pict's auto iso, and auto scene, etc. works well for her.

Neither the K7 or the K-x are what I want to replace my K200.
GP
10-23-2009, 11:08 PM   #34
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
QuoteOriginally posted by smc Quote
Re the batteries. I don't like the AA option for two reasons. The first is that most people are unaware how nasty they become once thrown in the garbage (presuming you're not using rechargables).
OK, that's an argument against non-rechargeable batteries. What about rechargeable AA's that is, the kind that most photographers actually use?

QuoteQuote:
The second is that the charge on a K20d/K-7 lasts forever. I've always splurged on a second battery, so I have an extra charged one on hand and it allows me to deplete the first battery fully between recharging. I throw the charger in my backpack if I am going on a trip. I've had them for Canon and Pentax from about 2001 with no issue. Expensive at first but I've saved a lot of money over the throw away AAs.
Again, you seem to ignore the possibility of rechargeable AA's, which can be used exactly the way you are describing, and are *less* expensive.

10-23-2009, 11:17 PM   #35
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
These are real problems with LiOn batteries, nothing I made up, and not an isolated experience by any means. Read from :

Is lithium-ion the ideal battery?
OK, but which problems are you referring to - the ones that they say have been "virtually eliminated", or the ones that say "are constantly improving"? Really, that article is not a harsh condemnation of Li-Ion technology; it's a pretty balanced overview of some of the technical issues. The corresponding article for NiMH would also list some problems and include statements about how they are getting better and better.

Again, I'm as big a fan of AA's as you'll find, but nothing in that article can really be construed as a reason not to buy a camera that use Li-Ion. The fact that the cells tend to go dead after a few years is a drag, but the same is true of NiMH. The advantage of AA's is just that they'll be easier/cheaper to replace when they do lose their potency, but still, we're talking a few dollars every few years.

QuoteQuote:
I don't see any technological reason Pentax can't add weather sealing and a battery connector to the Kx.
Of course they could; the only question is whetehr the engineering, manufacturing, and marketing effort necessary to maintain that particular configuration would turn out to be worth it. Especially as someone else would say that it also needs a pentaprism, or someone else would say it needs a second wheel, or someone else would say it needs some other random feature.
10-23-2009, 11:23 PM   #36
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Good news, I would love to be wrong about K-x, only a coupla hundred shots I've seen, I will check more.
Whereas lots of other people have been completely blown away by the samples. Maybe you could post pointers to some specific samples that you think demonstrate problems with the camera (as opposed to simply being the result of poor shooting technique).
10-23-2009, 11:52 PM   #37
Senior Member




Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 173
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Too expensive. Canon T1i $400 cheaper in my market. Nikon D5000 also cheaper. Both have feature sets (sans AA power) above the K-x. It's good to see the K-7 coming down in price, but it's still a very expensive body.
While the T1i and D5000 have a couple of unique features, I wouldn't necessarily consider them above the K-x in a strictly photographic sense. The D5000 has an articulated LCD, but the smallest viewfinder out of the three cameras. The T1i has 1080p @ 20fps (and 720p at 30fps) and a 3" LCD, but the slowest FPS and significantly more chroma noise than the other two cameras.

The K-7 is already on par with the D90/D300/50D in terms of high ISO performance, and if the initial shots are any indication, the K-x looks to be at least a half a stop better than the K-7. Despite being a mid-range camera, the excellent sensor performance is almost enough to entice K10D/K20D owners into purchasing one--or at least make them wish Pentax would release a K-7 with a K-x sensor installed.

For owners of the K200D, the K-x seems to be the clearest upgrade path at the moment. The K200D was a hybrid of the discontinued K10D and K100D brought about to fill the then vacant entry-level market segment. The inclusion of weather sealing probably had as much to do with Pentax's then "rugged" marketing campaign as it did with anything else, whereas the current theme seems to be "compact."

The key to whether or not the K200D will get a replacement probably hinges on whether or not the K-m is kept around to compete with the D3000/EOS 1000D. As long as the K-m exists as the entry level, the K-x will remain mid-level in Pentax's lineup. And, with the K-7 competing with both mid and high level entries from C&N (50D/7D, D90/D300), there doesn't seem to be a pressing need to fill that segment with another body.

In any event, though, going from a K200D to a K-x gets you:
  • vastly improved white balance
  • faster autofocus
  • nearly 2FPS on continuous shooting
  • video
  • 2mpix
  • 1-2 stops improved ISO performance
In exchange for that you lose a selectable AF point in the viewfinder and weather sealing. The viewfinder AF issue is really more of an annoyance than it is an issue that will prohibit you from taking good photographs. As for the loss of weather sealing, while regrettable, it isn't necessarily a deal breaker. Most lenses aren't weather sealed, yet that's where the majority of one's investment lies in a system. If your shooting environment is so extreme that it necessitates a range of DA* lenses, the cost of the K-7 would merely be incremental.

Personally, if I were already used to a one control dial camera, I'd have upgraded to the K-x as soon as they were available for purchase. However, I knowingly took a step backwards in ISO performance upgrading from the K100D to the K10D for the sole purpose of the extra e-dial and on-body controls.
10-24-2009, 10:04 AM   #38
Veteran Member
kristoffon's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Brazil
Posts: 532
QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I did not list price as the main issue. But convenience is. Dirt cheap or not, the K20D only adds MP, which I listed only as the 3rd and least important thing I want to change camera for. But it also uses much less convenient LiOn batteries.
And it has no video and barely higher fps. I never considered the K20D even before the K7 and Kx were released.
If you thing the K20D only adds mp you're sorely misinformed.

First off it has lots more buttons which allow you to set up the camera ENTIRELY without opening a single menu. Two exposure dials, buttons for af-mode (including af-c/af-s), ae points, af points, exposure compensation, bracketing. That's the first mark of distinction between a serious camera and an amateur one.

Also, the memory buffer fills with 15 raw images. The K200D's fills with 3. THIS IS A MAJOR POINT and in itself a reason for upgrading.

Autofocus is 3 to 4 times faster due to beefier motor and THE BATTERY being able to put out more power.

And lots more stuff, that's just listing the essentials. I was frustrated with my K200D due to its small buffer and needing to go into menus to change AF mode. The K20D is liberating and that isn't even mentioning megapixels.


QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I have seen the problems with LiOn over and over with camcorders and cell phones. They are well documented issues . And the inconvenience factor of carrying multiple chargers and buying more proprietary batteries is quite large.
Fair enough. OTOH, DSLRs chew so littler battery (in picture taking mode, anyway) that they last forever. I have my K20D for six months and only recharged 2 or 3 times. And took some 2.000 shots in that time. At this rate I'll die of old age before the battery reaches its cycle rating.

QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
Pentax seems to be able to make a camera that works on either AA or LiOn. The K7 does that, provided you add a battery grip. If they gave the same ability to the camera itself without grip, maybe we could end all these battery discussions and reconcile everyone. But right now the K7 needs 6 AAs, so that would presumably make the camera too large. Maybe the K7 needs higher voltage.

But Kx can operate with just 4 AAs, and it still has video & higher fps. I don't see any technological reason Pentax can't add weather sealing and a battery connector to the Kx.
The plain fact is that li-ion provides more power than AAs as evidenced by the K7 requiring six to function properly. It's a fact of life, accept it if you want an advanced camera. Or, conform yourself to the Kx. But bear in mind the major distinctions between the k20d, k7, serious cameras and the k200d, kx, amateur ones I mentioned.

10-24-2009, 10:21 AM   #39
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 4,073
QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
I'm having a hard time finding a logical upgrade path for this camera in the current Pentax line up.

The K2000 / k-m isn't it, no weather sealing, no grip ability, and same megapixels as the K200D.

The K-7 is interesting. 4.2 More megapixels, video ability, more fps. But it's a lithium-ion battery based camera, and that's a big no-no for me - this battery technology is just not reliable enough.
It does have a grip that can take AAs, but I don't want to always have the grip on.

The K-X is interesting too. It has 2.2 more megapixels, video ability, more FPS. But it has no weather sealing unlike the K200D. And it also lacks the ability to attach a grip.

When is Pentax going to release a camera that is in every way an upgrade from the K200D ?
I've had my K10D with lithium batteries in the body and the grip. They last for 100's of shutter actuations...when they run out, I switch to the grip Lithium batteries. I can't count how mny times I've charged them. They're great. You can't get a new K10D anymore, but you can probably find a new K20D...or get the new K7. LioN batteries aren't any issue at all for me. I use them during the winters here...we go down to 25-30 below on a reg. basis...I'm out for an hour or so, before I come in from the cold. My K10D is still not missing a beat. The K20D has 14.6 MP's.
10-24-2009, 12:36 PM   #40
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Trabzon/Turkey
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,010
QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Whereas lots of other people have been completely blown away by the samples. Maybe you could post pointers to some specific samples that you think demonstrate problems with the camera (as opposed to simply being the result of poor shooting technique).
Blown away by the samples? I am not searching K-x pictures on the internet, all samples I've seen was here, or from here to an external link, probably you've seen what I've seen Marc, for instance:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/77254-new-k-x-owne...le-images.html

My eye says K-x images are soft. Also my memory might fail me but as far as I remember one guy said K-x can take 100 ISO pictures also , can anyone confirm this?
10-24-2009, 01:30 PM   #41
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Western Missouri
Posts: 429
QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Blown away by the samples? I am not searching K-x pictures on the internet, all samples I've seen was here, or from here to an external link, probably you've seen what I've seen Marc, for instance:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/77254-new-k-x-owne...le-images.html

My eye says K-x images are soft. Also my memory might fail me but as far as I remember one guy said K-x can take 100 ISO pictures also , can anyone confirm this?
Image quality is in the eye of the beholder, of course, but looking at the samples in the linked thread, noted as being simple JPGs straight from the camera and having been taken using the 18-55 kit lens, I'd say they look very good. I doubt any DSLR on the market could do better with a kit zoom having plastic elements.
10-24-2009, 01:51 PM   #42
Pentaxian
Clicker's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,241
K7 is your only choice for what you're looking for as an upgrade.
10-24-2009, 01:51 PM   #43
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Trabzon/Turkey
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,010
QuoteOriginally posted by B Grace Quote
Image quality is in the eye of the beholder, of course, but looking at the samples in the linked thread, noted as being simple JPGs straight from the camera and having been taken using the 18-55 kit lens, I'd say they look very good. I doubt any DSLR on the market could do better with a kit zoom having plastic elements.
I remember, I made my decision to get which camera looking at the pictures on the internet, taken with 18-55mm AL I not even AL II. After I get my camera, my, I figured my desicion was right and my eye vision is perfectly ok, internet and my camera results are perfectly matched, Greatness of the internet. But.....

These are the first samples, it will take little more time to get down to the details. Hope K-x will do better than that.
10-24-2009, 02:01 PM   #44
Veteran Member
madbrain's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 799
Original Poster
Hi,

QuoteOriginally posted by kristoffon Quote
If you thing the K20D only adds mp you're sorely misinformed.
That's not what I think, but it's the main thing that I care about the K20D for.
I'm aware of the extra dials but don't need them, I certainly wouldn't buy a new camera for that feature.

QuoteQuote:
Also, the memory buffer fills with 15 raw images. The K200D's fills with 3. THIS IS A MAJOR POINT and in itself a reason for upgrading.
OK, I didn't know that the buffer was so much bigger.

QuoteQuote:
Autofocus is 3 to 4 times faster due to beefier motor and THE BATTERY being able to put out more power.
Interesting. From all the reviews I read, I thought the AF speed was fairly close between K200D and K20D, and it is good enough on the K200D for me except in low light, but I think that's got more to do with the zoom lenses I own being a bit slow.

QuoteQuote:
The plain fact is that li-ion provides more power than AAs as evidenced by the K7 requiring six to function properly.
I think that's got more to do with the fact that 6 AA batteries match the same voltage as one LiOn battery. In order to have the K7 be able to work with either 4 AAs or LiOn batteries, it would require a transformer, another expense and weight/volume addition. Pentax probably don't want to have that transformer in-camera. They might have it in the grip. But that wouldn't help much - the whole problem is they require a grip to use any AAs. Requiring 6 vs 4 isn't the main issue, requiring a grip is.

I don't think the differences between the KX and K7 (extra dials, grip connector, weather sealing, 14MP sensor) require a higher voltage on the K7, it is mainly a design decision by Pentax to use LiOn batteries on the K7, and they happen to have different voltage than 4 AAs.

QuoteQuote:
It's a fact of life, accept it if you want an advanced camera. Or, conform yourself to the Kx. But bear in mind the major distinctions between the k20d, k7, serious cameras and the k200d, kx, amateur ones I mentioned.
I'll skip the KX since it's clearly a downgrade from the K200D. The K7 + grip with 6AAs might be an option. But only if it came down in price.

I would still much rather see a KX + weather sealing and grip connector.
10-24-2009, 04:48 PM   #45
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,914
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirivon Quote
In exchange for that you lose a selectable AF point in the viewfinder and weather sealing. .
Demonstrate to me a competitor model that has an "upgrade" for a core model where features are lost, not gained at the same price point.

A trade across is not an "upgrade".

At this price point, another brand makes as much or more sense. Problem here is the K-x as an "upgrade" actually makes Canikon look better for longer term investments in bodies. Their evolution has been pretty constant; not this "we're Subaru" or "we're undercutting the price" or "it's about the colours". The T1i is a logical mid-point up from an Xsi. Skip a generation (as most do) and you're still good.

I agree that along the general trajectory or model-by-model improvements at price points, the K-x cannot be seen as an "upgrade" for K200D or K-M owners.

There's a massive market hole in Pentax's lineup. It's a $400 feature gap that the competition has solved.

Last, this issue will never go away. There will always be questions about Pentax as a system investment if it cannot put out the bodies at price points to keep customers who need an upgrade loyal. It will be a constant, public, and never-ending drag on the brand until they hit home runs (K-7 is a solid triple). People will always have to look to other brands to get where they want within their budget. This is the core flaw of missing price points: you lose customers when their eye wanders.

As for K-7/K-x AF, DP Review and DC Resource both found the AF to be on the slower side than the competition. This is the Pentax weak spot and the constant reminder costs sales and probably drops the brand retention rate.

I tried the K-x the other evening. nice size. Lack of AF points is a real downgrade for sure. It's stark and cheapening when comparing across price points with the other guys (how did Oly get such lightning fast, silent AF?). What really got me was that it felt cheaper than the K200D. The dial was looser and the whole body more plastic. Not as bad as Canon, but it made Nikon look very good, especially when you add in the excellent menu system. And it made Oly look good as well. The K-x just doesn't give one the sense of gravitas the K200D did. It is definitely not an upgrade. Again, this is part of the Pentax's lack of brand definition and commitment to a profile. Even though I was a professed Pentaxian, the sales guy was constantly trying to get me to look at the other brands. He could see that Pentax was not offering the right goods at the right price point. That's more lost sales. Confused brand. Great engineers, but the marketing nuts/bean counters who let certain advantages slip away is the company's problem. outcome = bad press.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 10-24-2009 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Major typos.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
ability, battery, camera, dslr, fps, grip, k200d, megapixels, photography, upgrade
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K200D upgrade skb0 Pentax DSLR Discussion 9 09-04-2010 11:10 AM
upgrade path: new lens or new body? tom_charnock Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 11 07-01-2010 10:25 AM
Upgrade path from K100D Super ismaelg Pentax DSLR Discussion 4 03-31-2010 09:12 PM
k100d upgrade path - K20 or Medium Format? Help~ CallMeDerek Pentax Medium Format 18 08-12-2009 11:38 PM
FA35 F/2 or upgrade to K200D? dugrant153 Photographic Technique 16 12-26-2008 09:32 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:38 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top