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05-15-2011, 03:49 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I am particularly struck by how lucky you are to be able to shoot 1/5, 1/15 sec etc in your dark jazz venue so often without incurring subject motion blur. Those guys must be fairly slow movers on stage.
Thanks rawr.

No, not true - they move all the time - and depending on where (lighting level)
- I can get as few as only 1 in 4 that are anywhere near sharp.

Most of the time I have to "predict" where the peak of the moment/motion is to take the shot -
it's kind of like taking a shot of a jump -
if one catches the peak or top of the jump it is only a momentary pause between going up and coming down -
but there is a point - and I still miss it often.....

I should add that shake reduction helps a lot too -
obviously not for subject movement -
but camera movement can ruin a potentially good shot -
with the K-x I can handhold to as low as about 1/6-1/5
on shorter focal lengths reasonably consistently
(I look for evidence in stationary objects).


Last edited by UnknownVT; 05-15-2011 at 08:45 PM.
05-30-2011, 11:56 AM   #167
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what's he been up to?


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/25; 18mm
this is actually back from March - but I thought was particularly successful...
and one of the reasons why I go to see this big band

[videos I shot at the same gig - NOT on the K-x - I was using K-x for my stills -
but from a HD pocket camcorder the Kodak Zi8 at 720p/30fps:


click on the 4 outward pointing arrows icon at the bottom right of the embedded screen to watch in 1280x720 HD]
The videos are good -
but it shows how good the K-x IQ is in comparison.......

same big band from last Sunday (May/22)

ISO5000, f/5.6, 1/10, 160mm
awkward shot - way back and behind people -
had to look and wait for gap to shoot -
and look at that focal length 160mm (or 320mm @ 35mm equiv)
handheld at 1/10sec!!! -
just like the lighting on this shot.

Last night at dark jazz venue - part of Atlanta Jazz Fest - Japan relief fund raiser -

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/15; 18mm
guitarist was in the shadows most of the time - had to select his face to bring up brightness.


ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/13; 43mm
I like that ghost of a smile.......


ISO5000, f/4, 1/20, 50mm (on 50-200)
reflections off cymbals gives uneven but interesting illumination to face - had to wait for right pose and right reflection!


ISO5000, f/4, 1/15; 50mm (50-200)
his face spent most of the time in the shadows - had to wait for right pose and his face to be lit from reflections from other parts of stage.......

Last edited by UnknownVT; 05-30-2011 at 01:59 PM.
06-17-2011, 10:09 AM   #168
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can it be any darker?
... well, ....yes....

...as soon as I walked in, I thought I was going to be in trouble last night -
but.....


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/13; 18mm (-2/3 stop compensation)
I obviously have brought up the brightness so one can see the picture - lights were on in the rear alcove - but the main lights were really low - so everyone on the front except center were in silhouette...... look how strong the shadows falling forwards are.


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/4; 18mm (-1/3 stop compensation - my standard setting)
playing from off stage was still the norm - one can see the guitarist even though on stage, and better lit, was almost always in silhouette. Focusing was really difficult - I had to focus on the bell of the trumpet when it was still - hold and wait for the shot. This is below both the metering and AF limits of the K-x.

The challenge was the pianist -

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/13; 68mm -
this is underexposed by about -2 stops, as it was below the limit of the K-x metering (display flashing) - the bluer magenta lighting on the left sleeve and shirt was actually the back lit lcd panel of the keyboard......

Surprisingly this really awkward lighting gave me some of my best shots here -

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/15; 18mm


ISO5000, f/4, 1/15; 58mm
really like the rim lighting -
this is the only shot I had to crop for better compositional balance.


ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/15; 88mm
interesting reflected lighting on face......

Both the last two shots - although that alcove may seem well lit - it is only relative to the rest of the room - look at that exposure values ISO5000 f/4 or f/4.5 at 1/15! - this is only about 1/3-2/3 stop above the lowest metering limit of the K-x using the 50-200 zoom.

and it wasn't just the better lit alcove -
stage center -

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/13; 63mm
below the metering and probably AF limit of the K-x (display flashing)

I remain consistently impressed with the K-x and the two humble kit lenses -
to be able to shoot under these almost "stoopidly" low light conditions.

To think this combination was somewhere in the region of about $550 (K-x and two zoom kit) -
that was incredible value, and I really truly do not think I can improve much by using any other camera body or lenses.

eg: better HighISO to use say ISO12800 - this ought to gain me one stop faster shutter speed - yes, definitely useful - BUT I still would have the problem at such low light levels of actually being below the metering and what's worse the AF limit of the K-x.

Wider aperture lenses - would again help as that would mitigate the low limits of both metering and AF and get slightly faster shutter speeds -
but to be able to replace the ranges I already have?
These would have to be very expensive lenses
and I am not too sure how much of a true visible improvement I would get.

So I just learn to hold the camera still and learn to focus on objects that are easier to focus on......

Last edited by UnknownVT; 06-18-2011 at 01:42 PM.
07-06-2011, 08:28 PM   #169
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It's always something......

Last Thursday's lighting was again different from the week before - to the point of being almost the diametric opposite - no, I don't mean it was bright - but different distribution of lights on stage.


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/15; 18mm; -2/3 stop compensation (-1/3 stop is my norm) -
no lights in the back alcove - but relatively speaking plenty of light on the pianist!

So I had a field day there:

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/15; 80mm; again -2/3 stop compensation (from my -1/3 stop norm, otherwise the face would have had overexposed spots)
great in-situ lighting both direct and reflected of the keyboard surfaces. This guy moves all the time - so 1/15 sec is marginal.



ISO5000, f/4, 1/13; 24mm; -2/3 compensation.
See what I mean about the lighting at the pianist's position?
Trumpet player was just there momentarily to play the intro vamp.

Not all light and sweetness...

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/13; 18mm; -2/3 compensation
on and off stage action - huge variation on brightness levels.

Then the usual -

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/4; 18mm; -2/3 compensation -
plenty of off stage action -
this shot would not stand real close scrutiny - as there is plenty of subject motion blur - not just from the conga player but the body parts of both trumpeters - but it was too good a shot to pass up......

speaking of subject motion blur -
how's this for a parting shot?

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/8; 18mm; -1 1/3 stop compensation -
due to uneven lighting the compensation was -1 1/3 stop! and as it was the pianist's face was still grossly over-exposed.
Lots of motion blur (it was 1/8 sec!) -
but that's what made the shot dynamic for me.

07-13-2011, 09:51 AM   #170
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Didn't think I could do much better on the current pianist (shot in post above) - but hopefully I try to strive to continually improve.

Last Thursday - (the lighting looks similar to the week before -
but somehow just seemed darker to me)

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/6; 18mm; -1 stop compensation
that bright spot through the window, top left, is night street lighting - and not the sun!......
There is obvious subject movement - and might even be a tiny bit of camera movement
- but hey this is standing, handheld at 1/6 sec.

Here's the pianist:

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/15; 80mm
I think better than last week's.


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/4; 18mm; -2/3 stop comp.
thought I was done complaining about how dark it was?
1/4 sec handheld -
to think I took this sitting down...
(sorry couldn't resist the slight pun)

Link to album for all the shots I posted there over the past 4 weeks.
07-13-2011, 10:09 AM   #171
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It's great to be able to watch you at work, and the way you continually tune what you do.

Everyone at that jazz venue must know you so well by now.

From the focal lengths you've used in most of these shots, and some of my own experience, I think it would be great if Pentax or someone made an 18-135 f2.8 lens, or even just 18-100 f2.8. It would be very handy. The current 2.8's in the range 16-50, 50-135, 28-75 etc are good lenses but one fast lens to span that range would be ideal.
07-13-2011, 10:25 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Everyone at that jazz venue must know you so well by now.
Yes they put my name at the door every week - for
do not admit under any circumstance.......

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
From the focal lengths you've used in most of these shots, and some of my own experience, I think it would be great if Pentax or someone made an 18-135 f2.8 lens, or even just 18-100 f2.8. It would be very handy. The current 2.8's in the range 16-50, 50-135, 28-75 etc are good lenses but one fast lens to span that range would be ideal.
Ha! you and I are on the same wavelength -
yes, I had been looking at a single zoom to try to replace the 2 humble kit zooms, so I would not have to change lenses
and an 18-135 f/2.8 would be almost ideal for the venue -
although I would always covet an 18-200 f/2.8 (yeah dream on) -
even if it were available - I'd probably be too mean to afford it....
so I work/struggle with what I've got -
it's not really too disadvantaged -
The K-x is so good at low light/HighISO that I can "get away" with the humble kit zooms.

Also, to be honest, the two kit zooms, although obviously not the "bestest" of lenses -
are more than adequate for my purposes -
I am sure there are much better lenses (at much higher prices)
but those two lenses are not as bad as some seem to make them out to be

Thanks rawr really appreciate your comments
07-13-2011, 11:36 AM   #173
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I too am happy with and can get good results out of modest lenses, so I am not knocking the kit zooms.

In fact I like the 18-55 II kit zoom in particular a lot. Optically it is good, and it works with the K-x exposure metering better than any other lens I have, which can make a big difference in low light.

I was just thinking out loud about an 18-135 f2.8. In reality it would probably have to be a pretty big and heavy (and expensive) lens. And I note that since neither Canon, Nikon, Tokina, Sigma or Tamron produce a lens like that, there must be some reason for them not to do so.

07-13-2011, 11:43 AM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I was just thinking out loud about an 18-135 f2.8. In reality it would probably have to be a pretty big and heavy (and expensive) lens. And I note that since neither Canon, Nikon, Tokina, Sigma or Tamron produce a lens like that, there must be some reason for them not to do so.
yep -
that's about the size of it....

and weight and price
of course!
07-25-2011, 12:36 AM   #175
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Got message late Friday (Jul/22) that Little Feat were playing a major venue, the next day early like 8pm - scrambled but managed to get an official photo pass for the gig.

However photographers were restricted to first 3 songs only and only could shoot from around the sound booth - maybe 100 ft away - and I'm not used to that kind of distance - also I was really under-equipped since my longest lens was only 200mm (50-200 kit zoom). This is the sort of time when I wished I did have the 55-300 instead - however with hindsight I don't think it would have improved things much (for me) - let's look at an example - even at full stretch of 200mm - for an individual I could only get:


this is unprocessed except for the obvious resize - exposure is good - but needs quite severe crop to get a pic that makes any sense - I remembered to set my K-x back to the full 12Mp (I normally shoot at 10Mp setting) to try to compensate a little for the cropping I knew I had to do.

However even though crop made better composition - look at the shot, the lighting was kind of flat and pale - the subject himself is in pale colors and has grey-white hair which does not help.

So after the crop I had to increase the contrast more than normal and then I increased the saturation a little - even then the shot still looks kind of washed out - that's when I realized I had other shots that looked better - because the stage lighting had just started to take a little effect and when yellow or red hit the subject it make the colors richer - so it wasn't just saturation - but the overall color balance - so balancing a bit toward orange/red gave me more the photo I wanted:


ISO3200, f/5.6, 1/250; 200mm.
Photo is nothing really to write home about - but quite a bit better than the unprocessed original.

My shots of the individuals were merely passable - not merely because of lack of longer lenses - but the from that distance even with longer lenses the perspective is not good - and the shot lacks the dynamics of ones that are shot from closer up - so they just don't feel as "alive" as closer shots.

Ah, but instead of thinking negative about where I was and the lack of longer focal lengths - I realize that I rarely get a chance at overall stage shots since I am normally close right at the stage edge - and it is normally very crowded - so if I leave to go back to take overall stage shots I have to squeeze my way back to the stage - so I tend not to do this until toward the end of the show - but here I am at about 100ft away with an open view -
overall stage shot:

ISO640, f/4.5, 1/125; 63mm; -3 stop compensation!
because the main stage background is black - I had to use a compensation of -3 stops! - It was lucky I chimp because my normal -1/3 stop resulted in grossly exposed subjects, and I saw that to compensate.

But I also got this -

ISO640, f/4.5, 1/125; 63mm; -2.7 stop compensation
no this is not a panoramic shot merely one that I cropped from:

the full frame did not look right/make sense with all that upper black featureless area - the panoramic format looked so much better - this shown at 800 pixel width to prevent sideways scrolling - the wider version posted (link) looks better.

Then there was nothing inadequate about the focal length for this kind of a shot -

ISO1250, f/5.6, 1/250; 200mm.

Back to my normal scheduled service.....

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/13; 18mm; -1.7 stop comp
a "normal" exposure would have made the shot too bright because of all the dark parts and clothing - so -1 2/3 stop compensation

Just noticed the instrument he's playing?

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/15; 38mm; -2/3 stop comp
That's a pocket trumpet - surprisingly has the same note range as a regular full sized trumpet,

Typical night with support playing from off stage:

ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/6; 18mm; -1 stop comp
a little underexposed so -2/3 stop comp would have been better - but I was experimenting.

The sax player - stood off mic to the side to play which is really out direct stage center light - but gave me this interesting shot -

ISO5000, f/4, 1/13; 58mm
in case anyone's interested - that's David Sanchez sitting in......

Last edited by UnknownVT; 08-05-2011 at 12:09 PM.
07-29-2011, 04:47 PM   #176
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ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/20; 18mm; -1 stop comp
one of the three mini spots on the track light was out.


ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/15; 68mm; -2/3 stop comp
undeniable subject movement (look how sharp the stationary objects are in comparison) - I have sharper shots - but not as nice as this one......

Try to turn adversity to advantage -

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/13; 68mm; -2/3 stop comp
light in center of stage virtually nothing else.......

Even stronger pic -

ISO5000, f/4, 1/60; 31mm; -2/3 stop comp
light colored shirt made all the difference - but this high contrast shot is just because there was only light in center of stage.......


ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/50, 73mm; -1 stop comp

No I haven't gone soft .... and shot only in the light.......

ISO5000, f/4, 1/13; 24mm; -2/3 stop comp
shot was underexposed probably due to the candles in the picture.....
but it turned out sharper than I had any right to expect.......


ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/10; 43mm; 0 stop comp
below main subject in silhouette due to the stronger light (night street) through the window - I deliberately left the out of balance bright part on the bottom right - that is reflection off the floor from the street lighting through the window......

I think those are pretty hardcore dark......

Last edited by UnknownVT; 08-19-2011 at 04:06 PM.
07-31-2011, 01:11 PM   #177
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Same major venue as last week for Little Feat (Post #175 above)
It was the Tedeschi Trucks Band with Dirty Dozen Brass Band opening -
so the same routine as last week? -
not quite - first act had to shoot from around sound booth - like last week,
but no restrictions on number of songs -
but as another photographer said the shots are kind of unchanging being so far away from the stage -
nevertheless I was aware/prepared for this - so from what I learned last week:

"panoramic" shot -

ISO800, f/4.5, 1/125; 73mm
cropped from regular 3:2 frame shot. Shot here reduced to 800pixels width to prevent horizontal scrolling - better viewed here (link)

I'm actually quite impressed with this shot:

ISO1600, f/5.6, 1/250; 200mm; -2/3 stop comp
50-200mm zoom at full stretch -
but it was still quite a fairly severe crop from this full frame -

no pp except resize.
Didn't mean to use -2/3 stop comp - that was just leftover from my previous setting - my normal -1/3 stop comp would have been better - but overall no real harm done.

As was this shot:

ISO3200, f/5.6, 1/250; 200mm
Obviously at full stretch, cropped from:


That shot is quite nice mainly because of the interesting action -
but this is what I mean about being too far away -
the perspective is not that exciting -
being compressed/foreshortened due to the distance -
so even if I had a 500-1000mm long lens it would not have helped on this.
Compare with this shot:

This was not taken on the K-x but my compact at the time Canon S80.
But the perspective is much better and the shot is more dramatic because of the much closer distance/perspective.

OK that was just the opening act..... what of the main act?
good news, and bad news -
good - allowed to shoot from front of stage
bad - only first 3 songs -
but it turned out not so bad they did 3 really long numbers
so I was on my knees on the concrete at the front for about 23 minutes
- long enough for my knees to hurt, and I could hardly stand up much less walk after that - so I limped to remove myself from the front......

ISO1000, f/3.5, 1/50; 18mm; -1.3 stops comp
Good but very high contrast lighting - Susan Tedeschi is almost burnt out while the horns hardly had any recordable light - notice the -1.3 stops comp to prevent Susan from being totally burnt out.....


ISO1000, f/5.6, 1/100; 55mm (on 18-55mm)


ISO1250, f/4.5, 1/125; 73mm

Like the lighting on this:

ISO5000, f/4.5, 1/100; 125mm

and the pose -

ISO3200, f/4.5, 1/160; 105mm


ISO640, f/4, 1/100, 50mm (on 50-200mm) -1 stop comp
A little underexposed because of the -1 stop comp but the shots in the series Derek was in much brighter light - in this when he leaned toward Susan his face was momentarily out of the harsh spot light (look at light on his back).....
better yet, just look at this -

ISO1250, f/4, 1/100; 50mm (on 50-200mm); -1 stop comp

Last edited by UnknownVT; 07-31-2011 at 01:27 PM.
08-05-2011, 01:53 PM   #178
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still dark .... still smokin'!


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/25; 18mm; -1.3 stops comp
only 2 of the 3 usual mini track spots were working - makes a bright center of stage and no light anywhere else..... had to use -1.3 stop comp otherwise main center subject would have been burnt out, due to high contrast.


ISO5000, f/4, 1/25; 50mm (on 50-200); 0 step comp
legendary drummer Kinah Boto - Thursday night's highlight and almost theme tune is named after him. Look at the movement during his solo - I am amazed that the face is even near sharp - most of my shots had his face blurred......


ISO5000, f/4, 1/15; 50mm (50-200)
Plenty of movement - one of my favorite shots of the night -

gig started quietly then - this guy arrived -

ISO5000, f/4, 1/10; 58mm; 0 step comp
hadn't seen him since Dec/17/2009 (Post #5) Kofi Mawuko on djembe, and Ahsa Ahla on congas above stirred up a percussion storm along with Kinah Boto.

Of course there is always this guy:

ISO5000, f/5.6, 1/25; 55mm (18-55); -2/3 stop comp
Kebbi Williams - when he's not at home he's touring with the Susan Tedeschi-Derek Trucks band.

Just when I thought things couldn't get any better - in walk these two:

ISO3200, f/4, 1/100; 50mm (50-200); - 2/3 stop comp
see that ISO3200 - the light colored shirt did it......


ISO5000, f/4, 1/30; 50mm (50-200); -2/3 stop comp
I have other shots where his face is more in the light - but I liked this shot where most of his face is in the shadow....
.... clarinet playing like you've never heard - closest is like Eric Dolphy's bass clarinet - but one octave higher.

similar vein of face in shade -

ISO5000, f/4, 1/13; 58mm; +2/3 stop comp


ISO5000, f/3.5, 1/5; 18mm; -2/3 stops comp -
no excuses - poor composition - blurred - I was lucky to be able to focus at all -
but boy! does this capture what was going on last night!

As does this:

ISO5000, f/4, 1/25; 28mm; -1 stop comp

Last edited by UnknownVT; 08-05-2011 at 02:32 PM.
08-05-2011, 03:26 PM   #179
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Once again, a very interesting update.

It sure is a challenging job shooting live music. Even in a familiar venue every shoot can be different.

Also have there been any recent developments with your post-processing tools and techniques? You must have a pretty good workflow now, especially for high-ISO shots.
08-05-2011, 10:59 PM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Also have there been any recent developments with your post-processing tools and techniques? You must have a pretty good workflow now, especially for high-ISO shots.
Thanks rawr - always a pleasure hearing from you -
at least it shows I'm not just posting in the wind (never could spell )

My post processing is pretty simple-minded - I try to get my exposure as well as I can - hence the ever changing exposure compensation.

There isn't much of a workflow per se - I am lazy so I try to make it as short as possible - a good shot without problems is a simple resize, increase of brightness with equal amount of contrast, then sharpen at the default 1 level that's it.

The shots that present a bit more work are when I have to brighten more due to underexposure - the equal amounts of brightness and contrast often lead to a shot that looks kind of garish - it took me this long to figure out that I can reduce the saturation and make it look more natural (DoH!).

Shots that really need brightening - sometime requires me to use the enhance lighting - which is fill-flash and shadow adjustment - then a final slight adjustment of contrast brightness, and may be a touch reduction of saturation (less so than the straight brightness/contrast)

I have shied away from making selected area adjustments - even though it comes much more naturally to me - having done years of dodging and burning in on film prints - as there may be a difference between my old fashioned crt monitor and the more modern higher contrast LCD monitors - so when I have to do more drastic bringing parts out of the shadow - this may lead to effects that can be seen on LCDs - but I cannot see them on my crt monitor.

So for now I am using enhance lighting more which is applied over the whole pic so I would not get that problem.

Still I miss being able to dodge and burn digitally for now - until I do more research and may be get myself an LCD monitor.

Looking back on this thread there is a general trend for me moving away from more saturated results to more subtle colors - this has been two fold - first over a year ago I switched from the default Bright setting to Natural - but with increase in Fine Sharpening and contrast.......(ie: it's the Bright setting with less saturation)

Then my post processing over the past few weeks has incorporated reduction in saturation to prevent increase in brightness/contrast from turning too garish.

But really that's about it.

So my "workflow" is to have the photo folder open, Windows preview -
old photo editor (PhotoImpact 8) open,
use old TWAIN loader from Canon (ancient) - to open original image stripped of any metadata - about a dozen images at a time in the editor -

- batch resize
- adjust brightness/contrast on each individually
- batch sharpen
- add name/copyright
- save

If all shots are pretty good exposure, then as you see this takes almost no time.

More awkward shots take a bit longer at the adjust brightness/contrast stage depending on how drastic the adjustments are.
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