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12-08-2009, 11:03 AM   #46
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@junyo
Just get the K-x. Whether you will miss the red indicators or not, you will get used to it. I'm sure there will be other greater challenges to get over than losing sleep over the indicators, such as composing the picture correctly -- speaking from personal experience :P

12-08-2009, 01:45 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxpup Quote
Although the green hexagon is fine, the red indicator gives you more information.
it doens't give *more* info; it gives *different* info. The red indicators can only tells you which AF point is being used, but it cannot tell you when focus has actually been achieved - only the green hexagon can do that. And vice versa.
12-08-2009, 02:18 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
... Therefore whether you can do something via another method is really irrelevant, the baseline value of a particular feature is whether it does something more or less conveniently/accurately/automatically than a given alternative or the lack of that feature. ...
What a nicely written up, clear argument (I'm referring to the whole post).
12-08-2009, 02:39 PM   #49
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I think that what those of us on the other side of the fence are arguing is that (to us) it's an acceptable feature to give up in exchange for a cheaper camera, because we don't feel any compelling need to have that extra/different info (and we don't necessarily think a lot of new-to-dSLR users will either).

12-08-2009, 03:30 PM   #50
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@Marc
Ok, I stand corrected. I checked and you are correct. I am used to the idea that when I use my K100d, see the red indicators, lens not moving, then everything is basically set. I'm sure someone will point out some flaw in that, but that works for most of the time for me (given I only had the K100d for a few days )

Regardless, the red indicators are useful to have when you do auto 11-AF. It allows you to quickly know where the camera is focusing (trying to focus) rather than figuring that out through the viewfinder. Our eyes are not very well adapt to such subtle changes.

But, not having the indicators shouldn't be the deal breaker for most. In my opinion, some need it, while others don't. For those that do, man... the price of the K-x vs another Pentax that has the indicator is so compelling to just get the K-x.
12-08-2009, 03:37 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxpup Quote
@junyo
Just get the K-x. Whether you will miss the red indicators or not, you will get used to it. I'm sure there will be other greater challenges to get over than losing sleep over the indicators, such as composing the picture correctly -- speaking from personal experience :P
What's probably not being understood is I already have, and have stated that it's not that big of an issue. If I really must have the indicators, I use the K10.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
it doens't give *more* info; it gives *different* info. The red indicators can only tells you which AF point is being used, but it cannot tell you when focus has actually been achieved - only the green hexagon can do that. And vice versa.
Well, it gives you more data in the sense that it's an additional, completely different piece of information, that happens to be somewhat related.

QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I think that what those of us on the other side of the fence are arguing is that (to us) it's an acceptable feature to give up in exchange for a cheaper camera, because we don't feel any compelling need to have that extra/different info (and we don't necessarily think a lot of new-to-dSLR users will either).
I agree. Outside of a narrow range of circumstances, most people will never notice it's absence. However, there are times where one might. And I think it does a disservice to people interested in the camera to not acknowledge that if they do X, Y, or Z, or are not comfortable doing a workaround, then it might be an issue.
12-08-2009, 03:41 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
What's probably not being understood is I already have, and have stated that it's not that big of an issue. If I really must have the indicators, I use the K10.
My apology. I grasped that as soon as I posted that. For some insane reason I thought you were the OP
12-08-2009, 04:32 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxpup Quote
Although the green hexagon is fine, the red indicator gives you more information. If you shoot autofocus center, then the hexagon is all you really need. If you shoot 11-AF (in which the camera choose which ever point to focus on, the red indicator allows you to know which of the 11 areas the camera is focusing on. This is handy in my opinion.
I guess I assumed no one would let the camera pick the AF point - which is in my opinion a horrible idea. Oh no, it picked the wrong one, time to try again and hope for the best...

Even worse on moving targets with burst mode - many of the shots will be focused on the wrong thing. This is from my experience with sports, rc planes, etc.

12-08-2009, 04:37 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
That doesn't seem like a quantum leap in functionality to me, but I'll have to give it a whirl. But the ability to manipulate the points at eye level was never an issue, at least to me, the ability to confirm the point chosen was, and this doesn't really speak to that issue. For that matter pulling the camera an inch away from your face and looking down greatly mitigates the problem, that doesn't mean it's as easy as having the points indicated in the VF.

The original post asked for comments about the lack of focus point indicators. A lot of people seemed hellbent on listing each and every possible way in which you can work around that lack, which is fine, but to reduce that argument to it's logical conclusion, you can work around almost anything. One can happily take absolutely great pictures with a K1000 with a busted meter. That doesn't mean that you can take pictures as easily or conveniently as you can with a functional, full featured modern camera. Outside of a light tight box, a way to let light into that box in a controlled manner, and recording media, almost every other feature of the modern camera is basically there for convenience, accuracy, or automation. Therefore whether you can do something via another method is really irrelevant, the baseline value of a particular feature is whether it does something more or less conveniently/accurately/automatically than a given alternative or the lack of that feature. And while the lack of VF focus point indication certainly doesn't preclude the use of the center point, or the selectable points, it does make the selectable AF point functionality less useful than it would be if the indicators were there. Can some workaround work as well, or even subjectively be a better fit with someone's process? Yep. But we're talking objectively, because arguing subjective worth is a bottomless pit. No matter how convenient the workaround, it's still a workaround and therefore requires additional time, control manipulation and/or effort , which by definition is objectively less desirable than the alternative.
It is a quantum leap in functionality if you shoot sports or close ups of small fast moving objects from a distance, which I suppose is not your situation. I would rate this application as more of a loss in functionality than your situation - and was quite close to being a deal-breaker for me.

I'd call it an extremely small loss in functionality (in contrast to "not a big deal") for your situation. There only one case I can imagine where it would be better for anyone to have AF-point indicators - that is a close up of a small RC plane going in and out of leaves. And well in that case it doesn't even matter because you will be focused on keeping it in the frame versus even looking at red dots - even if you see a red dot in the wrong place, the only option you have is letting go of the shutter verses taking an extra picture that might actually turn out good because the red dots are not guarantees of focus like the green hex.

Sure I can see it as a pain if you are used to using 11-point AF and re-focusing a bunch of times (which I myself found more painful the select-point) on (semi)static scenes. I'm only writing this out because a number of people see it as a bigger issue than I (or even you) do.

If you have a situation where it is truly better for AF point indicators from an ultimate functionality (to the point that it is the best way in a certain situation and is not superseded by another) point of view, I'd like to hear it.

Last edited by Eruditass; 12-08-2009 at 04:44 PM.
12-08-2009, 07:42 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
If you have a situation where it is truly better for AF point indicators from an ultimate functionality (to the point that it is the best way in a certain situation and is not superseded by another) point of view, I'd like to hear it.
Did I not already mention such a situation?
Doesn't need to be an RC plane between planes. Could be a hockey player approaching the goal.

Also when shooting portraits close with wide apertures, recomposition does not work well.
12-08-2009, 07:59 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Also when shooting portraits close with wide apertures, recomposition does not work well.
Yeah, but that's when you can choose your focus point. ;]

The hockey example is a good one, but I thought if we wanted to shoot sports we're supposed to be using Canon or Nikon!?

JUST KIDDING!!!
01-19-2010, 05:51 AM   #57
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In the end, I did get the K-X after all.
I haven't experienced any issues with respect to the auto focus, but I'm not in the professional leagues.
Perhaps that would bother some, but not me.
What a great little performer it is.....solidly built....very good IQ.
No complaints so far....but I suspect I'll be back to check on tips, and whenever I go bump in the night.
Cheers.
01-19-2010, 12:02 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matte Black Quote
I did get the K-X after all.
I haven't experienced any issues with respect to the auto focus
What a great little performer it is.....solidly built....very good IQ.
Congratulations - I hope you'll continue to enjoy the K-x -
I too agree it's a great camera - I am enjoying mine more and more.

Just a little input - I also have the K100D which has those blinking red LED focus selections, and occasionally I do still miss them - this is even when I have both my K100D and K-x set on center focus only - why?

Sometimes in the dark it's hard to make out the central bracket on the K-x - to be sure I'm on the object I want to focus on - eg: a musician's face - I could easily be slightly off and just miss with the focus area. Then I may have to resort to moving the camera to see the brackets or use my estimate of where the diagonals would cross in the viewfinder - both of which obviously takes time - whereas on the K100D it's nice to see the red blink on the face (or not - so I can correct my error) - but it is only a minor disadvantage to the gains I got in image quality and overall ability on my K-x..... and the price - it's a real bargain.

Some samples and more comments in Kx in Use
01-20-2010, 01:51 AM   #59
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I don’t have my K-x yet, so I certainly don’t know what I’m talking about…but hey, I’ve never let that stop me from jumping into a discussion before!

From my review of the instruction manual, it appears that you don’t really need to see the AF points.

The camera defaults to 5-point AF and AF.A mode. The camera doesn’t focus outside of the focusing area, so you already know that the camera will only focus on an area that appears to be a tiny bit more than 1/9th of the screen (if your subject is smaller than that, then I suggest you read Jodie Coston’s tutorials on composition! )

Now, the AF.A mode starts you off in AF.S to ensure a focus lock before allowing the shutter to be released. So if you go from zero to fully pressed, you should still get something that’s in focus. But if you don’t fully press, and only go to half-press, then AF.A puts the camera into AF.C, where the camera tracks the subject and keeps the subject in focus.

So, putting all that together, you should be able to point the camera at the subject to ensure a focus lock, and then move the camera to recompose, which should keep the subject in focus. The corners of the 5-point focus area reach the “rule of thirds” cross points, which is where you should want to place the subject. So you shouldn’t lose the focus point during recomposition (the instructions on page 119,120 are for when the subject is outside of the focus area, at which point you’ll lose your AF.C lock.)

One question that I have is…when the camera goes into AF.C mode, do all the focus points become active? The reason I wonder this is because of the “precision focus” scenario, where the photographer is using a shallow DOF and the point of focus is critical. In that case you’d want to use Spot as the focusing area. But after focusing on that one point, and while holding the shutter half-pressed, you should be able to recompose and the camera should make the small focus adjustment necessary to keep the target area in focus as long as the target is anywhere in the focus area.

Well, that’s my sidewalk-lawyer analysis of the function. And if it doesn’t work that way, then it probably should. The manual certainly makes it sound like it does. So while it certainly is nice to get feedback from the system, if the AF.C can do its job well during a simple recomposure of a scene, then the center-recompose technique should be fast and adequate for making sure focus is where you want it to be.
03-08-2010, 11:08 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
I just cant seem to buckle down and read these 3 and 4 pages of comment threads anymore. Maybe my forum days are numbered as the arguments used to be so much fun.

So I am sure this has probably been said in the responses.... but, for the folks who shoot a lot of wide open-ish, portrait orientated shots like I do. The idea of center focus on the eyes / recompose to put the head at the top of the frame is laughable to me! The Dof is so shallow that you will seldom get eyes in perfect focus.

The Kx looks to be a great sensor in a crippled body to me.
For Bill and Betty Newbie who may never buy a 1.4 / 1.8 portrait lens... it is probably truly a non- issue. But for folks who want to use the F1.4 and High ISO in indoor portraits, selectable Auto focus points would be a great thing to have IMHO.
Hear Hear...Nuff said.

Thanks
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