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04-09-2010, 03:22 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by HGMonaro Quote
What is the situation in Germany for car parts?
3rd party car parts do exist here and as all 3rd party products, are legal.

The difference between (legal) 3rd party and (illegal) knock-off lies in the registration of rights. The weakest and most easily obtained right is the Geschmacksmusterschutz which is a variant of the Industrial Design Right. You obtain it if the product isn't entirely defined by its function.
QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
the name of the EU rule or directive and maybe quote the part that backs up your statement about the DX grip being a counterfeit product
The normal procedure is that Pentax would have registered a Utility Model with Japan, France and Germany and an Industrial Design Right in the UK and US. This hasn't yet been harmonized within the E.U. It is a counterfeit product in countries where Pentax did their homework.

A new system for international registrations of Industrial Design Rights is currently being introduced making it easy to protect (Pentax') Intellectual Property. Cf. https://webaccess.wipo.int/hagueform/


Last edited by falconeye; 04-09-2010 at 03:37 AM.
04-09-2010, 03:48 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
It is a counterfeit product in countries where Pentax did their homework.
The DX grip is NOT a counterfeit product because it's not being sold as an original Pentax grip. It only says "For Pentax" on the box. For all intents and purposes, it's just a copy made of slightly inferior materials and with less functionality (no sealing). I'm perfectly happy with my copy because I needed a shutter button in a vertical orientation, but did not want to spend 250 euros for just a button. I don't feel guilty at all because I have spent 10,000's of euros in original Pentax gear, but 260 euros for a grip is just plain ridiculous. I'd rather buy a Pentax K-x for a "few"euros more!
04-09-2010, 04:04 AM   #108
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Clearly the issue is exactly the fact that it is a copy and a fairly exact copy, not that there is a third party grip out there. Most third party items are made by backwards engineering and therefore lose a little to the brand name products. Sigma does not pay licensing fees to Pentax/Canon/Nikon for using their lens mount, at the same time a) They come up with their lens designs themselves and b) Their lenses may not function as well with a given camera as a result.

In general, China has not been protective of patents and other property rights at all. Whether this is artistic infringement (selling pirated DVDs) or stealing other designs, it is important to protect these things. It really is the principle of the thing, not just the item itself.
04-09-2010, 09:46 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mister Guy Quote
In other words, US law prevents you from protecting design features that are necessary for the use of the product. You can't prevent someone from putting plugs, screws, and padding in the same location of a product designed for the same use. The very nature of making it compatible with a specific model of camera for human hands gives them protection.
That would be true of connectors and anything that's an absolute requirement to allow the devices to connect and function together. It would NOT necessarily be true of anything that's not such an absolute requirement. IANAL, but I do know that you CAN patent the design of a product in the US, and it doesn't even have to be an exact copy of the original to be illegal.

Design patent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

QuoteOriginally posted by Timichango Quote
The costs for Pentax to tool up for this fabrication would be the same as whoever was making the knockoff (if it's not the exact same facility), so it's not like Pentax is the only party investing capital here, while for the company producing the knockoff, it's all gravy.
...unless (as you note) the knockoffs are being made on the very same equipment that Pentax paid for, without their permission, in a supplier's factory. It happens to other high-tech companies, and there's every chance it's happening here too.

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Not defending Sakura but what's with the "shouting" and personal attack?
There was no personal attack. There *was* a parody of his own unnecessary shouting, and a post pointing out that he completely ignored the issue at hand and pretended that he felt there was nothing wrong with buying a ripoff product, when very clearly he would be upset were it his own product being ripped off.

QuoteQuote:
FYI unless you've explicitly registered your images, your images and that of everyone else's that are posted online risk be leeched by others, so no need for the childish histrionics on this forum.
That is absolutely and definitively NOT true. There is no requirement in (US) law for copyright to be registered on an image, text, etc. for copyright to be enforceable. Yes, you can derive extra benefits in enforcing your copyrighted work if you take the time and money to register it, but you are still protected even for an unregistered work.

There are some fair use rights to derivative works, but they're a decidedly gray area with no hard-and-fast rule as to how much of the original work is allowable in the derivative, Fair use rights don't apply to a 100% exact copy of a work, however.

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
The DX grip is NOT a counterfeit product because it's not being sold as an original Pentax grip. It only says "For Pentax" on the box.
Removing the manufacturer's name and selling an otherwise identical copy doesn't make something any less a counterfeit. Try going out and making an exact copy of an Apple iPod and selling it as "for iTunes" on the box. See exactly how far you get, before you get sued into oblivion. It won't be long, I promise. The only difference between that fictional counterfeit product and this one is that it's a much bigger mass-market product which generates far greater profits for its creator, and hence will appear on their radar earlier, and be treated with greater urgency.

04-10-2010, 05:45 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by knoxploration Quote
That is absolutely and definitively NOT true. There is no requirement in (US) law for copyright to be registered on an image, text, etc. for copyright to be enforceable. Yes, you can derive extra benefits in enforcing your copyrighted work if you take the time and money to register it, but you are still protected even for an unregistered work.

There are some fair use rights to derivative works, but they're a decidedly gray area with no hard-and-fast rule as to how much of the original work is allowable in the derivative, Fair use rights don't apply to a 100% exact copy of a work, however.
Do you know what you're talking about? You need to register your work for any copyright claims to be entertained in any court of law. No registration, no protection.
Please refer to this link on the copyright issue in the US.
Scott Kelby's Photoshop Insider Blog Photoshop & Digital Photography Techniques, Tutorials, Books, Reviews & More Blog Archive Catch My Exclusive Interview with Attorney Ed Greenberg for the Straight Scoop on Copyright, Model Releases, an Refer to part 2.

Last edited by creampuff; 04-10-2010 at 05:58 PM.
04-10-2010, 09:58 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Do you know what you're talking about? You need to register your work for any copyright claims to be entertained in any court of law. No registration, no protection.
Please refer to this link on the copyright issue in the US.
Scott Kelby's Photoshop Insider Blog Photoshop & Digital Photography Techniques, Tutorials, Books, Reviews & More Blog Archive Catch My Exclusive Interview with Attorney Ed Greenberg for the Straight Scoop on Copyright, Model Releases, an Refer to part 2.
Yes, I absolutely know what I am talking about.

From http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf:

QuoteQuote:
"Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

Copyright Secured Automatically upon Creation
The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. (See following note.) There are, however, certain definite advantages to registration.

Copyright Registration
In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration.

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright."
From Copyright registration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

QuoteQuote:
"It is a common misconception to confuse copyright registration with the granting of copyright.

Copyright is itself an automatic international right, governed by international conventions - principally the Berne Convention (which dates from 1886). This means that copyright exists whether a work is registered or not. When the US finally signed up to the Convention in 1989, the internal registration system was retained, but foreign works must now be treated as though already registered in the US in accordance with the Berne Convention."
From Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

QuoteQuote:
"In all countries that are members of the Berne Convention copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights. However, while registration isn't needed to exercise copyright, in jurisdictions where the laws provide for registration, it serves as prima facie evidence of a valid copyright."
As I stated, there are *advantages* to registering copyright, one of which is that it enables one to file an infringement case in court. It is absolutely NOT true that you don't have copyright protection without registration, however. Registration for a work can still be made at any time, and it is still possible to launch an infringement case once registration has been made - it will just be harder to prove you're the copyright holder, and the potential damages will be lower.
04-27-2010, 05:34 AM   #112
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Piece of Junk!!!!

I had the DX generic type grip for 3 months now: Locked up my K7 on several occasions, wheels are cheap crap that skip over aperture and exp. time settings (need to move it 2x+ to get to next f-stop), hard to mount due to missing rubber dots (unlike the original), buttons/wheels feel like a cheap Chinese toy.

Don't waste your money on this garbage, not even comparable to my
original K20D grip I just sold. Some of you might get lucky or think it's "good enough", but I would not lose a photo session over this pos.

Just ordered the original Pentax BG4 from B&H today. We are already saving a ton of money with Pentax, no need to attach junk: The grip is literally the other "half" of the body. And don't get me started on 3rd party beer glass lenses, what's the point of buying into Pentax and missing the best part, their glass.
Mind as well get that "Coolpix".

Just 2 cents from a full-time shooter.
04-27-2010, 05:47 AM   #113
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The DX may be crap but my Dealextreme grip is good to go. I have used it on my K7 for the past month and there is nothing wrong with my copy. Your DX version may have been a faulty one though. That does not mean that all 3rd party stuff is crap.

Paid USD$55.00 for it and have no issues with it since . . .

Out of curiosity, but do you use brands like Tamron, Sigma, Tokina, and Cosina? These are good 3rd party lens manufacturers and their glass is superb. Did you know that Cosina manufactures for big brands in the industry too?

04-27-2010, 05:50 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by passigatti Quote
I had the DX generic type grip for 3 months now: Locked up my K7 on several occasions, wheels are cheap crap that skip over aperture and exp. time settings (need to move it 2x+ to get to next f-stop), hard to mount due to missing rubber dots (unlike the original), buttons/wheels feel like a cheap Chinese toy.

Don't waste your money on this garbage, not even comparable to my
original K20D grip I just sold. Some of you might get lucky or think it's "good enough", but I would not lose a photo session over this pos.

Just ordered the original Pentax BG4 from B&H today. We are already saving a ton of money with Pentax, no need to attach junk: The grip is literally the other "half" of the body. And don't get me started on 3rd party beer glass lenses, what's the point of buying into Pentax and missing the best part, their glass.
Mind as well get that "Coolpix".

Just 2 cents from a full-time shooter.

Interesting, you are the only one I have read saying that this is a piece of junk....I wonder if anyone else with this 3rd party grip feels the same after having owned it for a month or more? As for 3rd party lenses...which are you referring to exactly? Blanket statements about all non-Pentax lenses being junk would a big fat "wrong" in my opinion.

Jason
04-28-2010, 08:53 AM   #115
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My thoughts on DX grip (if anyone cares)

I just received my knock-off grip from DealExtreme, all the way from China. It took about 2 1/2 weeks. Paid $54 and some change. I really just wanted to see how I liked handling the K7 with a grip. First off, the grip wouldn't snug up to the body because the alignment pins (metal) on the opposite corners were misaligned. I had to knock one of the pins off with a screwdriver and hammer. Snugged up fine after that. All controls seem to work fine. Power switch seems to rotate a little too easily. I switched it off accidentally. Plastic construction quality seems a step or two below that of Pentax (I have a Pentax grip for my K10). It says in the manual that it is dust proof and water resistant but I probably wouldn't test that. Overall I'd have to say that it's pretty impressive for the price. In the end, though, I've decided that I don't really care for the feel of the K-7 with the grip. I love the size of the camera as-is and will only use the grip when I have my Sigma 100-300 f/4 attached, when it does make things feel better balanced. I'm glad I didn't spend $200 bucks for something I won't use that much!

Last edited by DogLover; 04-28-2010 at 11:27 AM.
04-28-2010, 11:04 AM   #116
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I own and oftenly use this grip for almost 3 months now. It really works like a charm, switches feels good and solid, metal pins fits like a glove.
Never have any compaints about it at all.

Well, if i really have to say something negatives about it, the only negative point about this grip is that the plastic protection hood of the grip it's contacts won't click in the spare space in the grip itself

And yes, i know, it isn't wheather sealed, but it costed me only 54 dollar and not 350 dollar for the original one wich i really could not affort.

Last edited by Sakura; 04-28-2010 at 11:09 AM.
04-28-2010, 01:40 PM   #117
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I purchased the following grip:
BATTERY GRIP FOR PENTAX K-7 K7 D-SLR CAMERA D-BG4 DBG4 - eBay (item 170464633653 end time May-25-10 01:09:56 PDT)

Matched up perfectly and tightly. Material feels a little cheap compared to the body but for $60 I'm more than satisfied and it makes the K-7 much more comfy to me. All of the buttons and dials seem to work without flaw.
05-03-2010, 06:22 AM   #118
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3rd Party Battery Grips.

I have one stored in a box that messes up my K20s every time I tried to use it. The supplier even sent me parts to correct a poor fitting batter tray. I only use Pantax grips, because they work! I rely on my cameras for my income, so they have to work. I give after market grips a BIG thumbs down. Buy the Pentax. You will be happier!
05-03-2010, 12:50 PM   #119
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When you're camera is you're income, i couldn't agree more.
But for me, my cam is just for fun and only costs me, I wouldn't buy a original grip because it is way overprized and i simply can't affort it.
The DX-grip is more than enough for my use and it works and fits perfectly. And if you have to choose between a DX-grip or no grip, the choice is easy.
05-03-2010, 05:45 PM   #120
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Im still trying to figure out why the hell every brand's battery grips have to be so exuberantly expensive..... its a battery tray with a couple buttons! They would sell at least 3x as many if they were all a bit under $100, I guarantee it.

My K200d battery grip is some of the best $35 I've ever spent. I shoot vertical more than half the time so it was a no brainer, but at the K-7's grip price Im not so sure. That DX grip looks real nice right about now....
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