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05-04-2010, 04:15 AM   #121
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Well, there is some engineering to go into the design to make certain that it fits the camera well, is good ergonomically and in this case can take AA batteries. But finally, camera companies sell the camera bodies relatively cheaply and expect to make their money on accessories -- grips, flashes, and lenses.

05-04-2010, 08:11 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by yeatzee Quote
Im still trying to figure out why the hell every brand's battery grips have to be so exuberantly expensive..... its a battery tray with a couple buttons! They would sell at least 3x as many if they were all a bit under $100, I guarantee it.
Because these companies make most of their money from the accessories, not the cameras themselves.
05-04-2010, 09:25 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by knoxploration Quote
Because these companies make most of their money from the accessories, not the cameras themselves.
I agree somewhat, but and as I wrote before in this same thread.

There are cost associated with designing, engineering, developing molds, prototyping, testing, designing packaging and marketing. If you factor in the cost of keeping employees on the job to do all of this it's got to be costly.

Let's say that it cost $250K to $500K before they start seeing a profit. How many grips do they need to sell at a $25 profit before you even break even?

But,...if you steal a design by reverse engineering the grip like some third party suppliers are doing there is no overhead involved is there? Under this scenario of course you can sell the knock-off at $50.

Seriously,... how many Pentax K7 grips do you think Pentax is even selling? Even at a hypothetical $150 profit/unit they would still have to sell 1,600 to 3,300 grips if their cost to develop the grip is even close to the range I gave (bear in mind the number is just thrown out there and not a real number) before they even see a profit.

My point? well I guess for those that are reading....if you want Pentax to develop features and accessories, then support them otherwise they may start phasing this stuff out. Especially since they don't deal with the same volume numbers as Canon or Nikon.
05-04-2010, 11:26 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by blind-bat Quote
I agree somewhat, but and as I wrote before in this same thread.

There are cost associated with designing, engineering, developing molds, prototyping, testing, designing packaging and marketing. If you factor in the cost of keeping employees on the job to do all of this it's got to be costly.
Designing and engineering a grip is so extremely simple, every idiot could do it on an empty corner of yesterday's paper.
So those cost, well, lets make I very expensive, lets say half an hour work, makes some $50.- . Third-party grip creators also have to design en engineer there grip.

Creating the mold, well, that's not more than putting a block of metal in the machine, pressing the [enter] key on you're computer and the mold will be created. That's no different for Pentax or for the third-party grip creators.

Marketing costs are next to nothing, a picture of it in the folders of the camera itself will do the trick. Third party grip creators will even have more difficulty in marketing because they can't let it lift along with the camera folders.

Prototype testing is not more than testing 3 switches and 2 wheels, let’s say 2 minutes for someone who works extremely slow. That also is something that has to be done by the third party grip creators.

So creating a grip is extremely cheap and simple.

DX can sell them for $45.- including P&P and still makes a profit. Lets say Pentax employees are more expensive (in fact, I really don't think they are, the grip of Pentax is also made in honking or somewhere in that area), so Pentax could possibly sell them for $100.- and makes profit. That leaves a hole of $200.- overprizing.

QuoteQuote:
But,...if you steal a design by reverse engineering the grip like some third party suppliers are doing there is no overhead involved is there? Under this scenario of course you can sell the knock-off at $50.
Reverse engineering a stupid box with some switches and 10cm of wiring
I myself can reverse engineer the grip in 10 minutes. Nothing more needed than a multimeter, an original grip, a pencil and a peace of paper (or an empty corner of yesterdays paper ).

QuoteQuote:
Seriously,... how many Pentax K7 grips do you think Pentax is even selling? Even at a hypothetical $150 profit/unit they would still have to sell 1,600 to 3,300 grips if their cost to develop the grip is even close to the range I gave (bear in mind the number is just thrown out there and not a real number) before they even see a profit.
With a retail price of $350.- they will have a very hard time to break even. Everybody know that it is way overprized and only the persons who really don't know how to get rid of all there money will buy one. I am absolutely sure that if they lowered there prize to something 'round $100.- there wouldn’t even exist a third-party grip and everybody would buy an original one.

QuoteQuote:
My point? well I guess for those that are reading....if you want Pentax to develop features and accessories, then support them otherwise they may start phasing this stuff out. Especially since they don't deal with the same volume numbers as Canon or Nikon.
So, you don't have any other brand of lenses, filters, flashes and focus screens than Pentax.


My point?
Creating a grip is almost not different for Pentax or for the third-party grip creators. The only difference is that Pentax put some rubber sealing here and there in there grip.
The original grip is that much overprized that people start looking for third-party ones, partly because they can't afford an original grip, or they rather spend $250.- more at a lens than at an overprized stupid plastic box.


Last edited by Sakura; 05-04-2010 at 12:04 PM.
05-04-2010, 01:16 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by blind-bat Quote
I agree somewhat, but and as I wrote before in this same thread.

There are cost associated with designing, engineering, developing molds, prototyping, testing, designing packaging and marketing. If you factor in the cost of keeping employees on the job to do all of this it's got to be costly.

Let's say that it cost $250K to $500K before they start seeing a profit. How many grips do they need to sell at a $25 profit before you even break even?

But,...if you steal a design by reverse engineering the grip like some third party suppliers are doing there is no overhead involved is there? Under this scenario of course you can sell the knock-off at $50.

Seriously,... how many Pentax K7 grips do you think Pentax is even selling? Even at a hypothetical $150 profit/unit they would still have to sell 1,600 to 3,300 grips if their cost to develop the grip is even close to the range I gave (bear in mind the number is just thrown out there and not a real number) before they even see a profit.

My point? well I guess for those that are reading....if you want Pentax to develop features and accessories, then support them otherwise they may start phasing this stuff out. Especially since they don't deal with the same volume numbers as Canon or Nikon.
Couldn't agree more. If you read my comments earlier in this thread, you'll see I've said much the same myself.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
Designing and engineering a grip is so extremely simple, every idiot could do it on an empty corner of yesterday's paper.
So those cost, well, lets make I very expensive, lets say half an hour work, makes some $50.- . Third-party grip creators also have to design en engineer there grip.
I'm sure you'll ignore this reply, just like you've ignored the valid points made in every reply in this thread that doesn't reaffirm your own beliefs. It has already been pointed out that the DX grip in particular is a near-exact ripoff of Pentax's own grip (at least, on the outside), right down to the position of every last screw. The only difference is that they cheaped out and saved a cent or two on some rubber bumpers and seals (and likely cheaped out on the components inside, where you can't see the sacrifices made in the interests of saving another few cents). So please, do enlighten me on exactly where their costs to design their grip were, given that they didn't design it themselves?

Oh, wait. You reckon it doesn't cost more than $5 to design a grip anyway. That being the case, why did you even buy one - you could've saved money by just designing your own. All you do is throw a piece of metal at your computer, and a grip magically appears, right? Two minutes testing and hey presto, you're set.

Your relentless cheerleading for the third party grips, and especially the DX one -- even when others report problems with their own third party grips -- could almost suggest that you worked for DX. ;-)
05-04-2010, 06:17 PM - 1 Like   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
Designing and engineering a grip is so extremely simple, every idiot could do it on an empty corner of yesterday's paper.
So those cost, well, lets make I very expensive, lets say half an hour work, makes some $50.- . Third-party grip creators also have to design en engineer there grip.
Well, for all of $50 why don't you come up with a design for a KX Grip since others are complaining that none exist . There's no pins, so this should be easier for you than a K7 Grip. Post the design & get feed back from this forum on the design. Redo it a couple of times until you get let's say....20 people to agree that it good enough to build. Don't forget to get it drawn up in CAD since it's easier to implement into a 3 axis modeling machine.
`
QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
Creating the mold, well, that's not more than putting a block of metal in the machine, pressing the [enter] key on you're computer and the mold will be created. That's no different for Pentax or for the third-party grip creators.
Yeah, in a simplified world. But you still need to make the metal forms. This requires you to take a polymer mold to create a rubber mold to create a wax model, and then to use the wax model to cast it in sand, then pour a molten metal into your sand mold. Once this cools you need to grind off the burrs and then to use this to make a reverse mold with cooling capabilities since you'll have to get rid of heat. I'll stop here because you obviously will donate your own resources to this since this whole process is "nothing".

QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
Marketing costs are next to nothing, a picture of it in the folders of the camera itself will do the trick. Third party grip creators will even have more difficulty in marketing because they can't let it lift along with the camera folders.
It appears that you do not work in Advertising. Buying ads and media cost a lot of money. Why do you think people pay what they do for a 15 second super bowl advertising slot?

QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
So creating a grip is extremely cheap and simple.
Go ahead, develop the KX grip for Pentax I'll put up $50 for all your cost, but only if you don't take any royalties and provide this as an open design same as you insist for Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
DX can sell them for $45.- including P&P and still makes a profit. Lets say Pentax employees are more expensive (in fact, I really don't think they are, the grip of Pentax is also made in honking or somewhere in that area), so Pentax could possibly sell them for $100.- and makes profit. That leaves a hole of $200.- overprizing.
Reverse engineering or even the same machinery making the knock-offs. I wouldn't know for sure. But give it some thought here, do you really think that the factory running the machinery for these grips are running them 24/7/365? You really think these same factories don't finish their run in 4-5 days and then modify the molds slightly and then start creating knock-offs?

By the way, do you ever ask yourself why the Chinese Government doesn't crack down on abuse of overseas patents? Can it be because a lot of the businesses set up by foreign companies need to be partnered up with a Party Official?


QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
Reverse engineering a stupid box with some switches and 10cm of wiring
I myself can reverse engineer the grip in 10 minutes. Nothing more needed than a multimeter, an original grip, a pencil and a peace of paper (or an empty corner of yesterdays paper ).

Well,... you seem to trivialize the reverse engineering a process, but I assure you it is not 10 minutes of work.


QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
With a retail price of $350.- they will have a very hard time to break even. Everybody know that it is way overprized and only the persons who really don't know how to get rid of all there money will buy one. I am absolutely sure that if they lowered there prize to something 'round $100.- there wouldn’t even exist a third-party grip and everybody would buy an original one.
You still don't get the point here, some bean counter has already projected their break even point and estimated profits. Pentax is not getting rich off the grip. They are merely trying to churn a small profit out of selling a projected figure. Just think, if they didn't have a figure they already estimated to sell, how would they know what number to strike off in the first place? Remember, they don't make these grips as they are ordered, but by lots.


QuoteOriginally posted by Sakura Quote
My point?
Creating a grip is almost not different for Pentax or for the third-party grip creators. The only difference is that Pentax put some rubber sealing here and there in there grip.
The original grip is that much overprized that people start looking for third-party ones, partly because they can't afford an original grip, or they rather spend $250.- more at a lens than at an overprized stupid plastic box.
No, the reality is that Pentax created the grip first and the knock-offs are using the same design but just eliminating the rubber seals. Also people are cheap by nature, but don't try to justify a cheaper quality product and stolen designs because you're cheap.

For the record, I have no objections to people buying what they can afford, but they shouldn't gripe when their own job moves overseas because manufacturing or design of products becomes cheaper in other countries.

Last edited by blind-bat; 05-04-2010 at 06:20 PM. Reason: fixed grammar
05-21-2010, 01:32 AM   #127
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Just got mine this week. Comparing to the BG-2 I was using with my old K10D, it looks and feels of similar, if not exacting quality as the Pentax branded grip. I spent less than $60, delivered to my doorstep in Athens. Compared to the actual OEM grip (BG-4) which costs over 200 euros, I figure this the bargain of the year. It checks out perfectly, seated properly, looks great, functions as it should.

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05-22-2010, 10:23 PM   #128
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Batteries?

I'm a little apprehensive about entering this contentious thread, but I was wondering if anyone can comment on their knock-off k7 batteries (I'm not interested in a grip, just batteries)? I noticed this deal on Amazon, and I thought I would buy two or three:

Amazon.com: Rechargeable D-LI90 DLI90 Lithium Ion Battery For Pentax K7 K-7 D-SLR Cameras: Camera & Photo

Intellectual property issues aside, what are people's opinions about the quality of these batteries? Even with shipping, they are about 25% of the price of Pentax original batteries.

Thanks!

05-23-2010, 02:03 PM   #129
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From what I've read 3rd party batteries are pretty good.

I just ordered a K7 and got a 3rd party grip and two batteries from that same store.
05-23-2010, 02:07 PM   #130
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You are probably pretty safe with off brand batteries. Remember that Pentax doesn't actually make their own batteries either. However, the quality control on their batteries is probably better. I find that my off brand batteries don't last quite as long and stopping holding a charge quicker than do the name brand batteries.
05-23-2010, 11:15 PM   #131
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Personally, I wouldn't risk off-brand batteries. With high energy density lithium ion batteries, even the name brands are occasionally getting it wrong -- the high-profile battery fires from brands like Apple, Dell, HP and Sony should be more than enough proof of that. Chances are that no-name third-party batteries are built to lower tolerances, and have an even greater risk of failure.

If a name-brand battery catches fire in your camera, it's fairly likely you'll get the camera replaced for free, to avoid a potential PR nightmare for the company in question. If a third-party battery fails though, chances are it'll take your camera with it. Even if you can get the third-party battery out, it'll be fairly obvious what happened, and the manufacturer isn't going to replace your camera without seeing the battery. When they see it's not their fault, they're unlikely to want to bear the cost of repair.

Is it really worth risking losing your expensive camera body, to save a few bucks on a battery?
05-24-2010, 03:37 AM   #132
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Well if the battery caught fire and melted, how would they know it's third party? :P

Also it's not "a few bucks" It's 35 dollars. As a college student, I need to save where I can.
05-24-2010, 08:19 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kazy Quote
Well if the battery caught fire and melted, how would they know it's third party? :P

Also it's not "a few bucks" It's 35 dollars. As a college student, I need to save where I can.
35 bucks, compared to the cost of the camera, is "a few bucks". If you can afford the camera and the lenses to go with it, you can afford the battery. If you can't afford the battery, you most likely can't afford the camera itself.

And a battery can catch fire but still be identifiable when extracted from the camera. (In fact, I'd be surprised if it wasn't identifiable on close inspection). You can bet if it was reported to the manufacturer, they'd be looking at it *very* closely to try and identify why it failed.
05-24-2010, 08:36 AM   #134
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When's the last time you heard of a DSLR catching on fire?

If there was a problem like this with the third party batteries, you KNOW it'd be posted here. I've yet to see any issues about it posted, and everyone here actually recommends the batteries.


edit: In fact, I could probably get a good insurance policy on my camera with the money saved on batteries, which would cover in the very small chance that something did go wrong.
05-24-2010, 09:00 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kazy Quote
When's the last time you heard of a DSLR catching on fire?

If there was a problem like this with the third party batteries, you KNOW it'd be posted here. I've yet to see any issues about it posted, and everyone here actually recommends the batteries.


edit: In fact, I could probably get a good insurance policy on my camera with the money saved on batteries, which would cover in the very small chance that something did go wrong.
never heard one either. although laptops had/have always caught fire but due to overheating.
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