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12-27-2009, 05:48 AM   #16
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645 d sensor, kx size, k7 ergonomics +one awesome camera!

12-27-2009, 10:04 PM   #17
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I agree with all those who said that 4/3 is a waste of time. I don't think Pentax has the resources to handle 3 (or 4, if we get a FF cam) different format sizes. Nor is there any point in making a bunch of different, confusing lenses - we'll end up with lens compatibility chart like Nikon's (I'd post a link, but it's been known to cause seizures.)

It wasn't a bad format in the beginning - ie, about the first five minutes of its release. Four thirds was probably a good idea back when making CCDs was a much more expensive proposition than it is now. Keep in mind that Pentax has been cranking out DSLRs that are as small, if not smaller, than most of the 4/3 offerings, and still sticking SR in the body, so there's no reason why Pentax can't, in my opinion, make a decent-sized APS-C pocket cam.

Plus, pocketability goes way beyond the mere measurements of a camera. There's actual size, and perceived sized. Cut the protrubing crap off a camera - exposed knobs on the top deck, grips, those bloody faux-prism housings Panasonic and Samsung feel the need to stick on there - and a camera that's physically bigger than, say, the Samsung NX, will actually feel and handle like a smaller camera. I've no idea why so many cameras are about 15-20mm thick, either.

4/3 isn't trying to target those who want something truly pocketable. Checked the size between the K-7 and GH1 lately? There's not much in it. It was about a bunch of camera companies who'd fallen far behind in modern still imaging ganging together in order to stay relevant. Olympus had been in a coma since the eighties. Half of Leica's designers are probably still worried about that wall the East Germans want to build through Berlin. Sigma, unfortunately, made Sigma lenses and cameras, a terribly crippling fate. Oh, and how many know that Fuji and Kodak are actually part of the consortium, eh?

As for three tiers of APS DSLRs - not gonna happen any time soon. Pentax, to be clear, doesn't have all that much cash, and 4% market share. In other words, only one in twenty-five cameras sold is a Pentax. Why shag around, splitting hairs, and diluting sales? You're much better off putting ultra-easy modes in the firmware of an already capable camera, instead of releasing an idiots-only model.

There is of course, the one big flaw in your plan, if Pentax built that many models. No one'd buy 'em. Because Pentax wouldn't tell anybody about them...
12-27-2009, 10:37 PM   #18
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It is kind of odd that people on this particular thread are so agreeable. Gives me the creep. But I do think that there is a gap between K-7 and 645D. A huge one at that.
12-27-2009, 11:20 PM   #19
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Totally makes no sense for Pentax to put out so many ranges. For a small-ish company to be playing catch up to the estabilished market leaders is a sure fire way to sink the ship. Maybe not tommorow, but eventually the expansion costs will come back to bite the company in the behind.

Pentax needs to narrow their focus, not expand it. create a new category and dominate that, weather it be affordable medium format (a category no one has touched to date) or the entry level (where pentax are already doing quite well). The semi pro and Pro models are long sailed ships. Ask your average joe blogs which dslr camera maker they think best fits the "pro" image and the ingrained image of a Canon or a Nikon will inevitably pop up. No amount of money in the world is going to change that perception (all the money spent to date by Canikon has been to own that exact perception, in other words...the others came to the party maybe a decade too late.)

They need a niche market, not more models.


Last edited by Kaimarx; 12-27-2009 at 11:28 PM.
12-28-2009, 12:51 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
I agree with all those who said that 4/3 is a waste of time. I don't think Pentax has the resources to handle 3 (or 4, if we get a FF cam) different format sizes. Nor is there any point in making a bunch of different, confusing lenses - we'll end up with lens compatibility chart like Nikon's (I'd post a link, but it's been known to cause seizures.)

It wasn't a bad format in the beginning - ie, about the first five minutes of its release. Four thirds was probably a good idea back when making CCDs was a much more expensive proposition than it is now. Keep in mind that Pentax has been cranking out DSLRs that are as small, if not smaller, than most of the 4/3 offerings, and still sticking SR in the body, so there's no reason why Pentax can't, in my opinion, make a decent-sized APS-C pocket cam.

Plus, pocketability goes way beyond the mere measurements of a camera. There's actual size, and perceived sized. Cut the protrubing crap off a camera - exposed knobs on the top deck, grips, those bloody faux-prism housings Panasonic and Samsung feel the need to stick on there - and a camera that's physically bigger than, say, the Samsung NX, will actually feel and handle like a smaller camera. I've no idea why so many cameras are about 15-20mm thick, either.

4/3 isn't trying to target those who want something truly pocketable. Checked the size between the K-7 and GH1 lately? There's not much in it. It was about a bunch of camera companies who'd fallen far behind in modern still imaging ganging together in order to stay relevant. Olympus had been in a coma since the eighties. Half of Leica's designers are probably still worried about that wall the East Germans want to build through Berlin. Sigma, unfortunately, made Sigma lenses and cameras, a terribly crippling fate. Oh, and how many know that Fuji and Kodak are actually part of the consortium, eh?

There is of course, the one big flaw in your plan, if Pentax built that many models. No one'd buy 'em. Because Pentax wouldn't tell anybody about them...
Lithos, thanks, i needed the laugh, very funny

I think Pentax is brilliant exactly where they are at. By making the entry level camera, Kx, non-waterproof, it can be manufactured cheaply and still provide excellent IQ as Consumer Reports finally assured us, i image most of us were waiting for that while holding our breath :-). Also, i had never seen the Km or Kx up close till a few days ago, i was amazed at how small the Km was. I really wouldn't want it any smaller than that so agree with the sense of Lithos comments.

Once folks are hooked into the lenses at the Kx level, all of those lenses can be applied to the waterresistant camera at the premium level if they want to proceed further, that is the K7 or its successors. I note that many premium level cameras have a degree of water resistance also, perhaps not to the degree that Pentax does.

Someone remarked that the FF sensors are getting cheaper. Well its logical that the MF sensors are going to get cheaper too. I suspect that Pentax senses an emerging niche for relatively inexpensive MF quality products that can undercut "digital back" cameras. Go Pentax!
12-28-2009, 01:59 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
I think Pentax ought to throw out the usual categories, except for entry-level a la K-X. Keeping something in a K-7 range is good, and in addition to that, they ought to make a workhorse/student camera in a similar price range to where you can have a K20d now, (maybe by just keeping on with letting the price fall when it's not the latest thing, but they could leave out such nonessentials-to-many as video and suddenly be the ones making a serious student camera. This could possibly double as an outdoorsy and compact mid-range by adding some scene modes and maybe an available simplified interface, which'd just be a matter of programming.)
I would find the workhorse model an attractive upgrade from my *istDS.
12-28-2009, 02:25 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
What I hope for is a Optio-W Super with 24-50/4 zoom and APS-C sensor.
How could that be pocketable? One of the virtues of the W80 is its small size.

Btw. my daughter got a W80 for christmas, and it's in every way better than my W10, even at high ISO, despite twice as many pixels. But ISO 800 is still unusable, which was a disappointment for her until I helped her set the auto ISO range to 64-400 instead of the default 64-800.

So instead of going all the way to APS-C, I would rather suggest a slightly larger version, with larger sensor, fewer pixels etc., i.e. make anything that would make ISO 800 reasonably usable and ISO 400 good instead of just barely acceptable.

But for a lightweight all-weather High-IQ camera, I wish for a sealed K-x with focus point indicators, together with a sealed pancake lens :-)
12-28-2009, 07:20 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
How could that be pocketable? One of the virtues of the W80 is its small size.

Btw. my daughter got a W80 for christmas, and it's in every way better than my W10, even at high ISO, despite twice as many pixels. But ISO 800 is still unusable, which was a disappointment for her until I helped her set the auto ISO range to 64-400 instead of the default 64-800.

So instead of going all the way to APS-C, I would rather suggest a slightly larger version, with larger sensor, fewer pixels etc., i.e. make anything that would make ISO 800 reasonably usable and ISO 400 good instead of just barely acceptable.

But for a lightweight all-weather High-IQ camera, I wish for a sealed K-x with focus point indicators, together with a sealed pancake lens :-)
Well, many many years ago, I had a Minox EL, a 24x36 film camera, with 35/2,8 prime, that was truly pocketable. It was deeper than my W60, but not larger or higher. And I would buy a APS-C Optio W even if it would be pocketable only in a large jacket pocket, and not in a shirt pocket...

12-28-2009, 08:02 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
*snip*
This was really great.
12-28-2009, 08:27 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
Well, many many years ago, I had a Minox EL, a 24x36 film camera, with 35/2,8 prime, that was truly pocketable. It was deeper than my W60, but not larger or higher. And I would buy a APS-C Optio W even if it would be pocketable only in a large jacket pocket, and not in a shirt pocket...
Yes, the minox was cool - but in your previous post you were wishing for a 24-50 mm zoom, not a 35 mm prime :-)

The W-series waterproof construction relies on the lens being placed sideways inside the camera. This suggests to me that a waterproof camera with an APS-C-sized-sensor probably could be made optimally compact with a form factor more like a video cam (which it should also double as, of course).
12-28-2009, 10:25 AM   #26
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The F-43 camera do not make much sense IMO. A large sensor camera with a fixed slow lens will not have much advantages against small sensor cameras with fast fixed lenses (such as LX3 or S90).

The F-43 will only be bigger and more expensive.
12-28-2009, 11:05 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kaimarx Quote
Totally makes no sense for Pentax to put out so many ranges. For a small-ish company to be playing catch up to the estabilished market leaders is a sure fire way to sink the ship. Maybe not tommorow, but eventually the expansion costs will come back to bite the company in the behind.

Well, that's somewhat why I think they ought to keep it to a couple-few *platforms.* There can be different *models* with different feature sets without supporting entirely different camera lines.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax needs to narrow their focus, not expand it. create a new category and dominate that, weather it be affordable medium format (a category no one has touched to date) or the entry level (where pentax are already doing quite well).
These are definitely good things: especially since they're basically farming out their P&S models to other makers, anyway. They definitely won't find advantage by mimicking the big brands price/seriousness hierarchy, but it doesn't mean the only answer is to only choose a couple of those categories and then try to directly 'compete.' (With a successful 'entry-level' like the K-x, *that* category can support a lot, but no one said that, for instance, they couldn't also keep up a back-to-basics-but-current-where-it counts option in a similar price range... Again, the student/workhorse camera. *No* one else is doing that, and Pentax has always been the traditional go-to-guys for students and *teachers.*



QuoteQuote:
The semi pro and Pro models are long sailed ships. Ask your average joe blogs which dslr camera maker they think best fits the "pro" image and the ingrained image of a Canon or a Nikon will inevitably pop up. No amount of money in the world is going to change that perception (all the money spent to date by Canikon has been to own that exact perception, in other words...the others came to the party maybe a decade too late.)They need a niche market, not more models.
"Perception" is fickle. "Competing for the poser market" is just something that'll eat itself.

Cause telling 'Pro's' "If you want the big-company professional services, do it our way or we'll say you're not a professional," ...well, that's the fastest way to have unenthusiastic customers feeling insulted and trapped at best. Look at what happened to Windows.

To 'cede the field of serious cameras' is guaranteed to not impress anyone. Pentax needs to play to their strengths and do things differently, not accept others' definitions.

Trying to play the 'pro branding' too hard is actually self-defeating. Nothing gave Nikon an unfriendly image like a few 'pros' (and noobs) sneering over their F3's and not being able to shoot their way out of a paper bag. (That's where the old Canon-Nikon feud originated, anyway. When Nikon fell behind in the digital race, ...Hoo hoo, old stuff seems to have come up.

Pentax, on the other hand, always had an image of being the brand of competent artists and students and all the usual: where they screwed the pooch marketingwise was trying to rebrand themselves as 'budget' and try to create 'image' instead of *images* with weird 'features' and finishes and plastickeyness. )

Even one out of twenty five DSLRs is... A lot of DSLRs.

It's *slower,* maybe, but that seems to suit their manufacturing and management situation as it's been the past few years, but some of the best marketing they can *have* is to put serious stuff in the hands of those of us who are *neither* about pretense nor big budgets, just out there looking like we know what we're doing and getting the images.

People who are like, 'I bought this Nikon or Canon cause they were supposed to be 'the best' and am having a hard time,' they wanna be 'what are you using?'

What Pentax really needs most right now, I think, is to come out with like a DA 28 or 30 /2 or 1.7 WR, or something like that, affordably... The affordable nice normal prime Pentax always considered bread and butter, keep options to not dumb-down, nor dig in menues, let people *learn and actually get the nice results instead of spending near a grand and being told they need a nicer zoom....

Especially in these times when 'conspicuous consumption' and brand prestige are *out* for most thoughtful people, trying to cultivate the 'This is the necessary status symbol, be a 'pro,' ' ...Well, most thoughtful people are like, "This is a) intimidading, b) Obnoxious, and c) Not getting me the promised better photos."


There's plenty of room to grow, there. 'Competing marketshare image' doesn't belong inside the decision curve. Pentax needs to cater to the 'serious' photographers because we're cheaper than celebrity marketing.

I mean, I don't go around telling people to 'buy some Pentax,' (If Pentax would make the affordable prime, I probably would under a number of circumstances) And I say, lean toward making it a 28: a lot of these folks running around with cell phone cams are handier with the Photoshop than *I* am at this point, go ahead and let them crop. Give em a current prime lens that'll be smaller, lighter, weather-tolerant, and blow away *everyone's* kit zoom for a couple hundred bucks. It'll fly. Really)

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-28-2009 at 11:17 AM.
12-28-2009, 11:36 AM   #28
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12-28-2009, 11:53 AM   #29
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Is This News?

Why is this post even in the News and Rumors section? The topic lacks relevance to this section and should be moved.
12-28-2009, 12:59 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Why is this post even in the News and Rumors section? The topic lacks relevance to this section and should be moved.
I agree, I'm not a frequent poster and didn't see the this one: Pentax DSLR Discussion - PentaxForums.com

where it probably belongs. My apologies.
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