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12-28-2009, 04:46 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Why is this post even in the News and Rumors section? The topic lacks relevance to this section and should be moved.
"News and Rumors" would seem to be the traditional place for marketing prognostications and commentary. Even if it doesn't start with:

"I heard someone say Pentax is/is not/might/said they would or wouldn't/ think Canon or Nikon would be better unless/They make a full frame by now/next year/the year after/last year/are destined to fail unless they stop making cameras entirely right now...."


Then we talk like this.

12-29-2009, 12:08 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote

"Perception" is fickle. "Competing for the poser market" is just something that'll eat itself.

Cause telling 'Pro's' "If you want the big-company professional services, do it our way or we'll say you're not a professional," ...well, that's the fastest way to have unenthusiastic customers feeling insulted and trapped at best.
Unfortunately, from experience, thats exactly how it goes, more so from the Marketing Managers, who know absoultely nothing about photography outside of "Brand names" who also do the hiring. Canikon have the enviable position of not having to compete for new customers beleive it or not. Alot of people dont understand the dynamics of advertising dollars, most of all marketing people oddly enough. When Canikon advertise their not looking to get more customers on board, thats what publicity and word of mouth is for. Advertisings sole purpose is to keep customers exactly where they are. A returning customer is the bread and butter of any business.


QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Pentax, on the other hand, always had an image of being the brand of competent artists and students and all the usual: where they screwed the pooch marketingwise was trying to rebrand themselves as 'budget' and try to create 'image' instead of *images* with weird 'features' and finishes and plastickeyness. )
Agree, the biggest problem with Pentax is their known now as the "Budget Brand" nowadays. Thats great for customers who know the company's history but the fine line between Quality on a Budget and Budget Quality are inevitably mixed in the mind of prospective consumers who have no prior knowledge of the company (new customers).



QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
People who are like, 'I bought this Nikon or Canon cause they were supposed to be 'the best' and am having a hard time,' they wanna be 'what are you using?'
Hehe, here in NZ i have witnessed a few such purchases going into our local Trade site. It was obvious they had brought into the image of professionalism only to be somewhat baffled when they produced the same level of photography they had produced with their P&S camera's. Like wise, i had a friend who had a Pentax K10 and traded it off because their pictures didnt look professional enough...a new brand later the images looked the same but he was quite adament there was a increase in quality. Perception is fickle, but if you so happen to own a business or a product or a service, perception is everything!
12-29-2009, 02:25 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
"News and Rumors" would seem to be the traditional place for marketing prognostications and commentary.
I also thought it was fine in News and Rumors.
12-29-2009, 11:13 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The F-43 camera do not make much sense IMO. A large sensor camera with a fixed slow lens will not have much advantages against small sensor cameras with fast fixed lenses (such as LX3 or S90).
I see three advantages:
1 At base ISO the large sensor camera will provide better image quality. Granted you will need to increase ISO faster because of the slower lens, but at the times you can stick to base ISO, image quality will be better.
2 Large sensor camera get way more market attention
3 A serious large sensor compact will do more to boost Pentax brand standing

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The F-43 will only be bigger and more expensive.
People will also be willing to pay quite a bit more for a serious large sensor compact.

12-30-2009, 04:30 AM   #35
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The larger sensor camera has better image quality at base ISO, but for me the difference is to small to be worth it. It will take printing in very large sizes for the difference to be seen.

This type of camera might get much more attention for Pentax, but I think most of the attention it get is negative. Most reviews will say it is a big, overpriced camera with low specification and see it as a failure.

If Pentax want to make a large sensor camera with a fixed lens it should have a fast fixed focal lens to get the type of attention Pentax needs.
12-30-2009, 05:11 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Keeping something in a K-7 range is good, and in addition to that, they ought to make a workhorse/student camera in a similar price range to where you can have a K20d now, (maybe by just keeping on with letting the price fall when it's not the latest thing, but they could leave out such nonessentials-to-many as video and suddenly be the ones making a serious student camera. This could possibly double as an outdoorsy and compact mid-range by adding some scene modes and maybe an available simplified interface, which'd just be a matter of programming.)

Basically, I think they could go far by abandoning the usual price/seriousness hierarchy and providing a choice at the lower price ranges: some amateurs will want the automation and features, students and low-budget working photogs might well go for the access-to-essentials factor.
I agree with this. I'm thinking of this student/workhorse camera as a replacement for the K200D, so it would fit between the K-x and the K-7 in the Pentax line. Weather resistant, of course. A sensor at least as good as the K-x, absolutely. And I think scene modes are important for this camera - even if half the people who buy it don't use them. But dedicated ISO and exposure compensation dials - a la the Canon G11 - would be better than menu control. Another reason this camera would be taken more "seriously" than the K-x. A pentaprism would be nice, but that might be too much to ask for in this price range.
12-30-2009, 06:30 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
A pentaprism would be nice, but that might be too much to ask for in this price range.
But the large, bright pentaprism is the whole point of an SLR-form camera. You could add DOF preview and make that combo a strong selling point for people who want to learn.

In cutting costs for a simple "workhorse"/learner's camera, it's bulky/complex bits such as in-camera anti-shake that can go. That's a performance feature not a workhorse feature (I bet all those moving parts increase maintenance issues and reduce overall camera lifespan) and it's certainly not an aid for students.
12-30-2009, 11:08 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The larger sensor camera has better image quality at base ISO, but for me the difference is to small to be worth it. It will take printing in very large sizes for the difference to be seen.
Many feel different as proven by the surge of large sensored compact-ish camera being launched lately.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
This type of camera might get much more attention for Pentax, but I think most of the attention it get is negative. Most reviews will say it is a big
Sorry but I clearly stated this should be a truly pocketable camera, that's the sole reason I put it in the list next to the EVIL aps-c models. If it is technically not possible like I specified it it shouldn't be built in the first place since there would be no market for it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
overpriced
Depends on IQ and specification.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
camera with low specification
Why would it have low specifications? I got a strong feeling you're just making things up now just for the sake of arguing, I hope I'm wrong.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
and see it as a failure.
See above.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
If Pentax want to make a large sensor camera with a fixed lens it should have a fast fixed focal lens to get the type of attention Pentax needs.
I see this as a valid point. However, there are already a number of fixed focal length large sensor compacts, a zoom lens would compromise lens speed, but add flexibility. A larger part would prefer the former and some part of the market the latter. The latter part is currently not being serve so has less competition. What is better is hard to tell. Might be an interesting thread topic in itself.

12-30-2009, 12:37 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Why would it have low specifications? I got a strong feeling you're just making things up now just for the sake of arguing, I hope I'm wrong.
With a slow lens the camera has low specification compared to other large sensor cameras with fixed focal lens, and will perform worse in low light conditions.
The speed of the lens is one of the most important specification on a camera with a fixed lens, and low light performance is one of the biggest reason for paying more for a camera.

By making the zoom lens as small as possible it will most likely be very hard to make the optics of highest quality. Many of the optical problems might be possible to correct in the cameras software, but not all of them.

Instead of a slow zoom Pentax should make a fixed lens camera with faster lens than the competition, or maybe even two versions of the camera, one with a "normal" focal length and one with a wide lens. After all Pentax has always been a master of making fixed focal lenses.
01-01-2010, 04:12 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
With a slow lens the camera has low specification compared to other large sensor cameras with fixed focal lens, and will perform worse in low light conditions.
The speed of the lens is one of the most important specification on a camera with a fixed lens, and low light performance is one of the biggest reason for paying more for a camera.

By making the zoom lens as small as possible it will most likely be very hard to make the optics of highest quality. Many of the optical problems might be possible to correct in the cameras software, but not all of them.

Instead of a slow zoom Pentax should make a fixed lens camera with faster lens than the competition, or maybe even two versions of the camera, one with a "normal" focal length and one with a wide lens. After all Pentax has always been a master of making fixed focal lenses.

I agree with you that many would prefer a faster fixed focal length. On the other hand many prefer to be able to zoom. The first category is already catered for in this segment, the latter part isn't, that my reason for making it a zoom lens. Of course it hard to tell what would be the better route. Also people really fancying low light performance could always choose the EVIL aps-c model or one of the DSLR's (same goes for zoom I suppose).
01-02-2010, 12:01 AM   #41
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Camera lineup

Get rid of your 4/3 option. Just a drain of resources.

Make K1 full frame in 12 to 16 MP range. Drop frame rate a bit. Keep price at least 20% below Nikon similar spec'd full frame.

There you go.
01-02-2010, 02:20 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The speed of the lens is one of the most important specification on a camera with a fixed lens, and low light performance is one of the biggest reason for paying more for a camera.
Yeah, look at the rough reception the DP1 got.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Instead of a slow zoom Pentax should make a fixed lens camera with faster lens than the competition, or maybe even two versions of the camera, one with a "normal" focal length and one with a wide lens. After all Pentax has always been a master of making fixed focal lenses.
There is a precedent for this in the Fuji Klasse cameras. One's a 28mm, the other's a 38mm. They've got a simple menu system via a tiny top LCD, and offer only two dials; one for aperture and one for +/-2 exposure. They're nicely designed, feel great in the hand, and have a nice heft thanks to the metal construction.

FUJIFILM | ??????? | ???????? | ??????? | 35mm???????? | KLASSE W | ????

FUJIFILM | ??????? | ???????? | ??????? | 35mm???????? | KLASSE S

I don't know if a truly wide angle lens would be possible in such a format, but these strike me as a great template for a small product line along the lines of which you're suggesting.
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