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06-22-2007, 07:43 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Minor point is, as far as I know NO camera has a list of "sharpening algorythms"
to choose from. ...
Even though I would never use it(someone would, I'm sure) they could put an option called standard and another called film. My canon HV20 camcorder has a similar setup , and although I'm not sure of the details, Fuji S5 Pro allows you to choose different Fuji film simulations(velvia etc.). Probably just a color thing... but still.

06-22-2007, 08:01 PM   #17
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Dark side sharpening comes from the Sith that belong to the "Dark side of the force", lol. Just sharpen your Jpegs a little who cares I do it with all my images anyway. RAW processing can be batched to. Set it up with setting you like and hit okay, a perfectly good Jpeg will appear out the other side. If you want a camera that has so called perfect Jpegs (I don't believe this is entirely true) get a Fuji S5 and pay twice as much as the K10D. You could also choose to buy a Canon and get jpegs that look like bright plastic. So one has a quote under their name, can't remember who but it is so true "we live in the world of the over sharpened image". Looking at some of the post cards on my recent trip to New Zealand made this very clear. There is one postcard of the lights of Queenstown looking down from the Gondolla with the snow capped Remarkables in the background, it was way over sharpened and made a photo that could have been brilliant look fake and edited. So just do a little bit of sharpening to your K10Ds Jpegs if you must it is really that simple. Nice to see a lot of Aussies in this forum, it seems Pentax is rather popular downunder!!

TIm H
06-22-2007, 10:48 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Timbuctoo Quote
Dark side sharpening comes from the Sith that belong to the "Dark side of the force", lol. Just sharpen your Jpegs a little who cares

TIm H
Yeah, whatever. Doesn't stop the advantage of having more choices if possible. Your way works for you, these firmware based menu option ideas cater to other Pentax customers.

If it is easy enough to please more people, - then please more people.


If not, then Pentax's advice to those people will be to give Pentax more money and buy the K10D replacement already this year that fixes all that.
06-23-2007, 06:25 AM   #19
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Actually it would be fine with me if they left jpeg off the K10D. Just like they left the 25 dumb scene modes off. The jpegs look good on the K10D. First few I shoot were competetive with the DS on raw. Once the K10D software was loaded into computer never shot jpeg again. Raw is easier to shoot than jpeg - no mesing with "right" color balance in the field. Much less worry about dynamic range and exposure in high contrast situations.Don't know why anyone would want to shoot less quality with any expensive dslr cameras. Jpeg is a compromise - no matter what brand. Reminds me of people buying crap brand film instead of Kodak, Fuji, etc. and sending it to the cheapest developer in town. Their pics were doomed from the start. Ansel couldn't have pulled off a great shot with that setup (well, he probably could).
The K10D is a serious tool for serious photographers. Had a person in the other day with Canon 5D. Everything was shot at wideangle. Photographer then cropped in computer to get the shot the way it was wanted. Only used about 10% of the image! The prints were terrible. Didn't know the lens could be zoomed! looking at close to $4000 here. Maybe Canon should put an auto zoom program on camera. Don't diss good cameras when you need more photo experience. Enough do this and all the companies will make P&S dslrs. Good photos require a certain amount of skill and expertise just like driving a car.
thanks
barondla

06-23-2007, 02:37 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Actually it would be fine with me if they left jpeg off the K10D.
Honestly... Me too.
06-23-2007, 02:49 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frakkas Quote
I'm still looking around to find a dslr to replace my slr.

The K10D's get medicore ratings on IQ in most reviews. That's the major reason why I haven't bought the camera yet.
When was the last time you printed a 20" x 30" from your SLR?

If you answered 'regularly', then you should be advanced enough of a photographer that you know that image sharpness depends heavily on lenses and that most reviews are done with a pathetic and soft consumer-grade zoom. You'll also realize that eventually you'll need to shoot RAW exclusively, and this is a moot point.

If you answered 'rarely', then the full-size sharpness of JPEGs is also a moot point.

Also realize that most of the reviews out there are done by pixel-peepers who aren't even photographers. If you are one, their opinions on IQ are meaningless. (Which explains why Pentax hasn't, shouldn't, and won't address the 'issue'.)
06-23-2007, 02:53 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
If it is easy enough to please more people, - then please more people.
Do you think it is 'easy' to develop new sharpening algorithms and embed a custom selection in a menu?

Please.
06-23-2007, 04:31 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Actually it would be fine with me if they left jpeg off the K10D. Just like they left the 25 dumb scene modes off. The jpegs look good on the K10D. First few I shoot were competetive with the DS on raw. Once the K10D software was loaded into computer never shot jpeg again. Raw is easier to shoot than jpeg - no mesing with "right" color balance in the field. Much less worry about dynamic range and exposure in high contrast situations.Don't know why anyone would want to shoot less quality with any expensive dslr cameras. Jpeg is a compromise - no matter what brand. Reminds me of people buying crap brand film instead of Kodak, Fuji, etc. and sending it to the cheapest developer in town. Their pics were doomed from the start. Ansel couldn't have pulled off a great shot with that setup (well, he probably could).

Enough do this and all the companies will make P&S dslrs. Good photos require a certain amount of skill and expertise just like driving a car.
thanks
barondla
Absolutely!!! And the driving out there ain't that great these days. Lots of P&S drivers. RAW is the only way to go. It's the difference between a Polaroid and a slide. They have to have it on the camera for marketing reasons and the P&S shooters that are moving up who need some time to learn how to get the most out of the camera. I like the "film" like look from a Pentax and I'm glad that they do things a little differently. In RAW with the right lens I can produce an image as good or IMO better than any brand on the market.

Pentax's unique vision of photography has given us a ton of innovative features and ideas, to name a couple Hyper-program, the metered SLR, TTL metering, Return mirror, SMC coatings, Auto focus, Limited's....

QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
When was the last time you printed a 20" x 30" from your SLR?

If you answered 'regularly', then you should be advanced enough of a photographer that you know that image sharpness depends heavily on lenses and that most reviews are done with a pathetic and soft consumer-grade zoom. You'll also realize that eventually you'll need to shoot RAW exclusively, and this is a moot point.

If you answered 'rarely', then the full-size sharpness of JPEGs is also a moot point.

Also realize that most of the reviews out there are done by pixel-peepers who aren't even photographers. If you are one, their opinions on IQ are meaningless. (Which explains why Pentax hasn't, shouldn't, and won't address the 'issue'.)
Any of these reviews also has to be taken with a grain of salt as well because the magazines and most media live on Advertising revenues. Pentax doesn't spend any money on marketing. Are any of these magazines going to do monthly positive reviews of Pentax and diss Canon, Sony and Nikon etc? Not bloody likely or they will be soon out of business with out the ad money.

If you're going to make a decision on IQ reviews or some other insignificant reason then you'll be missing out on some of the world's best cameras (K100 and K10D) in their price range and lenses (Limiteds etc) that can only be compared to Ziess. Glass makes the difference!! Put a Abinar zoom on a Pentax or Canon and you wouldn't buy the camera for $20.00. Put a 31 Limited on a Pentax and you have a lens/camera combo that will outperform almost anything out there at any price. Proof of that is the trusty K1000. This solid, featureless basic camera that sold over 1 million camera bodies took thousands of award winning photographs. Not really because the camera was so great but because the Pentax glass on the front was so damn good. I've read more than once that the resolving power of the sensor on any of these cameras far out performs the vast majority of the glass that is available to the brand. Put a K10d together with a Limited or FA* and certain DA versions and you have a package that few can match.

The K10d is one of the best cameras in any price range on the market with internal anti shake. The other brands all make good cameras as well and this isn't to take anything from them. But as all the awards and positive comments have said, the Pentax K10D easily performs as well as DSLR's costing much more.

Finally at my local club there has not been one Pentax owner who switched to another brand. More and more K series cameras are showing up. But there have been 4 this year who have sold their gear and moved to Pentax. They see the images from the cameras, then that in-camera SR and a 40mm/70mm pancake and they have to have one!

Speaking of Abinar (sorry to anyone that owns one!) here's a title in an Ebay auction that is about as accurate as you could ask for..

eBay: Albinar 55mm Haze Camera Lens (item 270134491651 end time Jun-23-07 19:29:45 PDT)

Of course the guy is reading off the filter but if the shoe fits.


Last edited by Peter Zack; 06-23-2007 at 10:03 PM.
06-23-2007, 06:48 PM   #24
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Great post Peter Zack. It is amazing that people make the concious decision to put their camera on a lower quality jpeg setting, then bitch about the image quality - doh. If it ain't important enough to use raw it ain't that important. Amazing that people give up the extra quality of raw that is basically free. Unlike...
Lenses. Yes they make a huge difference. Would rather have the ol' DS with the limiteds than my K10D with the kit lens. The K10D would get smoked. Not its fault. Anyone wanting a great lens go buy a used 50mm F 2, 1.7, or 1.4. Kills the 18-55. Will most people? No, gotta have that zoom. Biggest thing Pentax could do to improve my K10D is bring out a new FA200 macro lens.
If you want to knock a cameras quality on raw you have my attention. This is where a camera is going for the gold. Love the K10D on raw. Is it perfect? No. Is it capable of turning out great shots with a little help from the photographer? Oh yes. It also helps to actually print something bigger tha 8.5 X 11.
thanks
barondla
06-23-2007, 07:59 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frakkas Quote
I've read a lot on this issue in several forums. The general answer is similar to "only noob shoots JPEG".

Well, what is the point in having JPEG conversion algorithm in the camera? If nobody should use this feature they could have left it out.

When I want to do PP I shoot RAW. But people don't always have the time/skills to PP RAW images and that's some of the reason why the JPEG-conversion is in the K10D. So I expect that this feature shoud present high IQ images which (as far as possible) doesn't require any PP.

I'm a looking for my first dslr. Because I've got no experience with digital cameras I'm gathering knowledge by reading reviews. Most reviews comment on the K10D sub-par JPEG IQ. Last example is from the NYT review: "Worst of all, the photos are soft and slightly washed-out ".

The sum of all the negative IQ comments is holding me back from buying the K10D.


I don't want to go into a lengthy discussion on this subject. I just want to find out if the people at Pentax are adressing this problem or not. If they are then I can wait - if not, then I'll continue my search for my first dslr.
Frakkas,

I understand your concern for any object that you spend your hard earned dollars (euro) on.

I have owned three Pentax DSLR's in the past year. The DL, K100D and the K10D.
Phil stated in his Pentax got it right on the imaging in the K100D. I think (thought) he was right originally. I love the K100D and found that it was an absolute gem to use and the images were quite fine.

The K10D, in my opinion, now that I have actually begun to use it, is a vastly superior camera both technically and image-wise. The latitude of capabilites is enormous and even as a seasoned photographer, I have not even scratched the surface of the cameras capabilities in the 6 months that I have owned it.

My personal advise is this: If you are a serious photographer you have the skills to handle jpeg or RAW. If you want to be a serious photographer you will have to learn both of these skills just as serious photographers in the past needed darkroom skills. There is no escaping this fact.
If you do not want to take the time to learn these skills there is little or no need for you to purchase this level of camera. A high end PS will do a pretty good job.

I do not find the image output of the K10D to be sub par or inferior. It is different from the extracted jpeg images of Canon and Nikon and the K100D, but the latitude and versatility of the jpegs is astonishing. RAW can, most of the time, be even better.

In truth, looking at the Pentax K10D output (and I have taught photography on the University level) has made me question conventional jpeg algorithm output that seems to be standard fare in the digital imaging business.

The flexible nature of K10D jpegs is a Godsend to anyone serious enough to want to push this camera and their skills to a higher level.

You need not sit on the fence on this camera. Look at the quality images that many serious photographers have pumped out in the short history of this camera. Go to your supplier, if nearby, and shoot some samples and see for yourself. Look at what the image shows and then look at the overprocessed competition or the nearly maxed out K100D jpegs(remember ... Phil says Pentax got it right with that cameras jpeg ) . You will see detail and potential that you as a photographer or an artist can awaken.

If you simply want all your images (good, bad and terrible) to come out of the camera...as is... this, and most other serious DSLR's is not the camera that you want.

Just an opinion. Just don't look at everything as a techie, or a pixel or someone else's opinion (mine include )) as gospel...because you have a very limited understanding of the knowledge of most people expressing opinions.

One final thought. How could Pentax possibley have won Camera of the Year in Japan and Europe if the output sucked? It couldn't win squat without delivering on a high level in all catogories.

Stephen
06-23-2007, 08:57 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
Do you think it is 'easy' to develop new sharpening algorithms and embed a custom selection in a menu?

Please.
If they are going to offer this in the new K10D replacement already being introduced in a month or two, and its done by firmware, then yes.
06-23-2007, 10:00 PM   #27
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SCGushue, Exactly Stephen. Couldn't have said it any better. No one wants to waste money on something that either doesn't suit their needs or is a dawg. I hope Frakkas can decide on the camera that is best suited for his needs and can enjoy the summer posting great photos no matter what he chooses. Pick a camera, any camera, just go out and have some fun! We're in a period where photography couldn't be more exciting. I for one don't miss sitting in the dark with my enlarger and this new medium has opened new doors and opportunities for everyone that were once limited to the very few. Everybody has a "darkroom" now and it's a blast!
07-02-2007, 04:27 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frakkas Quote
I'm still looking around to find a dslr to replace my slr.

The K10D's get medicore ratings on IQ in most reviews. That's the major reason why I haven't bought the camera yet.

I've tried to find comments from Pentax on this issue, but haven't found anything.

Has there been any comments from Pentax on the low IQ scores?
Does anybody know if Pentax is working to solve this problem?

I read an interview with one of the leads for the K10D and apparently they designed the camera that way. It was designed to take pictures that look more natural and film-like than the other digital cameras do. I will have to search for the interview again if you want to read the whole thing.
07-03-2007, 03:14 PM   #29
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The K10D does JPEG's? Man...I didn't even know that was an option.
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