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01-13-2010, 02:06 PM   #16
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The K100D, K200D, and indeed most low end cameras from other manufacturers managed to get the focus point indicators in there with a pentamirror, so no, it's not impossible. Just an extra bit of cost and weight they decided to cut to make room for other festures at the price point they decided they needed to meet - like Nikon leaving out a focus motor or a DOF preview mechanism, or Canon leaving out a spot meter or an MLU mechanism, etc.

01-13-2010, 02:10 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by RuiC Quote
It is my understanding that to do that you would need a PentaPrism and the K-x only has PentaMirror due to cost, size and weight issues.
I may be wrong on that, of course.

Rui
K200D had a pentamirror and focus points.
01-14-2010, 07:00 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Not sure if you're being facetious or not - I'd have thought you'd been around long enough to have seen an of the zillions of other long threads on this topic. But for the record, yes, you can still select focus points, using the LCD. So for the minority who depend on selecting focus points, it's still possible, just a bit more awkward, and if you're one of the few for whom that would make a difference, then that would be reason to spend more on a higher end camera. For the majority who either use center point only or who let the camera choose for them (and thus feedback on which was chosen doesn't help in the least, as there is no way to make use of that feedback), it's a non-issue.
Not facetious at all actually. I never spent much time in the DSLR discussion forum since I was so content with my K10D. No AF in the viewfinder would seriously bug me out, whether i wanted to select points or not. I've had my eye on the K-7 for a while now, that is one sexy camera. If I make the switch back to Pentax I will definitely get it, but no AF in viewfinder means no K-x for me.
01-14-2010, 03:59 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanLoc78 Quote
Not facetious at all actually. I never spent much time in the DSLR discussion forum since I was so content with my K10D. No AF in the viewfinder would seriously bug me out, whether i wanted to select points or not.
OK. Since you missed all the previous discussions, just wanted to make sure you do understand: it's only the indicator of *which* focus point is being used that is missing. The grene hexagon that confirms *when* focus has occurred is still present.

01-15-2010, 06:54 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The K100D, K200D, and indeed most low end cameras from other manufacturers managed to get the focus point indicators in there with a pentamirror, so no, it's not impossible. Just an extra bit of cost and weight they decided to cut to make room for other festures at the price point they decided they needed to meet - like Nikon leaving out a focus motor or a DOF preview mechanism, or Canon leaving out a spot meter or an MLU mechanism, etc.
On a side note, someone hacked the 400D/XTi to have spot metering -- it wasn't a matter of hardware limitations but rather it was "left out" of the firmware. Canon's been known for selectively leaving things out of the lower end cameras to give people and incentive to upgrade; remember the original Rebel/300D had the same guts (but smaller buffer) as the 10D and some guys in Russia figured out how to turn mirror lockup, spot metering, AF Servo mode etc back on.
01-15-2010, 10:44 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
The K100D, K200D, and indeed most low end cameras from other manufacturers managed to get the focus point indicators in there with a pentamirror, so no, it's not impossible. Just an extra bit of cost and weight they decided to cut to make room for other festures at the price point they decided they needed to meet - like Nikon leaving out a focus motor or a DOF preview mechanism, or Canon leaving out a spot meter or an MLU mechanism, etc.
QuoteOriginally posted by asdf Quote
K200D had a pentamirror and focus points.
OK, thanks both, this is a preconception of mine against pentamirrors

Rui
01-15-2010, 12:58 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by DanLoc78 Quote
Not facetious at all actually. I never spent much time in the DSLR discussion forum since I was so content with my K10D. No AF in the viewfinder would seriously bug me out, whether i wanted to select points or not. I've had my eye on the K-7 for a while now, that is one sexy camera. If I make the switch back to Pentax I will definitely get it, but no AF in viewfinder means no K-x for me.
I've used the K10D for about two and a half years, and I'm not missing the indicators for focus points at all on the K-x that I use now. I don't think you'd have any problem with it. It's very easy to select them and realize when you look in the viewfinder where they are, it's not a guessing game at all.

The only drawback I can think of is if you only change focus points while looking in the viewfinder and can't take your eye from it, then it's a problem, cause you can't do that and be sure what you've selected.
01-15-2010, 01:18 PM   #23
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Could it have anything to do with the target market for the k-x which is entry-level people upgrading to DSLR for the first time? Most are point and shoot types that wont notice the focus indicators anyway. I think the frustration here is that enthusiasts also are buying this camera for its size, price, and ISO performance, and are used to more information in the VF.

01-15-2010, 02:51 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
OK. Since you missed all the previous discussions, just wanted to make sure you do understand: it's only the indicator of *which* focus point is being used that is missing. The grene hexagon that confirms *when* focus has occurred is still present.
Not quite true. The red point AF indicators make the green hex redundant, and are a superior feedback mechanism because they are more visible, directly tie-in to the focus screen, and do not require a secondary menu system that takes the eye off the viewfinder when choosing which focus point.

All K-x previews/reviews have shown it as a negative and annoying implementation, and a step down from the K200D. Pentax took the better mode out and dumbed down the K-x.

It's also a distinct entry-level feature, especially if new users leave selection to auto. Many P&S cameras have focus indicators on points. Face detection is a focus indicator.
01-15-2010, 10:27 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The red point AF indicators make the green hex redundant
That's not true. The indicators do *not* guarantee you are in focus; they simply tell you that the focus point is active. That's why they are not and cannot be a substitute for the hexagon - they may light up when your subject is not yet in focus.

QuoteQuote:
All K-x previews/reviews have shown it as a negative and annoying implementation
And yet users are buying this camera in record numbers despite the naysaying from people who can't imagine that others might not care about the feature just because it is important to the naysayer in question. Obviously, it's an issue to you. Obviously, it's not to tons of other people. Can we move on?
01-15-2010, 10:44 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
That's not true. The indicators do *not* guarantee you are in focus; they simply tell you that the focus point is active. That's why they are not and cannot be a substitute for the hexagon - they may light up when your subject is not yet in focus.

And yet users are buying this camera in record numbers despite the naysaying from people who can't imagine that others might not care about the feature just because it is important to the naysayer in question. Obviously, it's an issue to you. Obviously, it's not to tons of other people. Can we move on?
Nothing "guarantees" focus. Don't be silly.

Any light in the camera could be used to indicate the focus has been achieved within the parameters of the AF system. You could as easily do without the green hex as the red overlay. The red overlay is superior in concert or standalone simply because it accomplishes 2 functions at once: what's in focus and where. It adds a 3rd excellent feature in that it can be adjusted without the eye leaving the VF.

Furthermore, the overlay system superior for new DSLR users because in auto mode, the red overlay shows them how the camera is working. That's called reinforcing feedback and a sign of superior engineering and communications. There's a feeling of precision and control, another sign of superior design.

I have seen no "record numbers' on sales. Decent sales, but nothing spectacular. Some don't care about a feature, but if you are Pentax and scrambling for market share, little mistakes always come back to haunt you.

How can everyone "move on"? It's a constant gripe on user forums here and elsewhere, like DPR. It's going to come up again and again regardless of your attempts to direct traffic and decide for others on your criteria. Let the community be a community.
01-16-2010, 04:14 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Nothing "guarantees" focus. Don't be silly.
I wasn't trying to be silly- just making a distinction between an indicator that says "I am *trying* to focus here" (which is what the red dots say versus
I believe I have successfully focused here" (which is what the hexagon says).

QuoteQuote:
The red overlay is superior in concert or standalone simply because it accomplishes 2 functions at once: what's in focus and where.
Except it leaves out the most important part: *when*. Like I said, it lights up when the thing at that spot is *not* in focus yet. Anyone relying on this to know when their pictures are in focus is going to get blurry pictures - the indicator was *not* designed to tell you that the subject actually *is* in focus. Only the green hexagon does that. That's the part you just don't seem to get. Yes *if* the red dot told you everything the green hexagon did, it would be better. But it doesn't it doesn't tell *anything* the hexagon does. All it tells you is where, not when.

QuoteQuote:
How can everyone "move on"? It's a constant gripe on user forums here and elsewhere, like DPR.
You mean a tiny minority of people - mostly ones who *don't* own the camera - won't let go and constantly gripe abut it. Moving on means accepting that this camera is not or you, and stop griping about it at every opportunity. All that does is turn off newbies looking for information.
01-16-2010, 05:29 PM   #28
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Possible Solution...

Pentax could simplify things by just not including the option to shift the focus point about. Making K-x a center focus point only camera would do the trick. No choice, no foul... eh?

If Pentax killed this option in its next firmware update, would that make the K-x near perfect?

Cheers...
01-17-2010, 07:55 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
...

How can everyone "move on"? It's a constant gripe on user forums here and elsewhere, like DPR. It's going to come up again and again regardless of your attempts to direct traffic and decide for others on your criteria. Let the community be a community.
I'm a voice in the community, and I've moved on. I took Marc's consistent advice and set my kx to centerpoint focus and have no problems. I never even think about the indicators anymore.

If you follow my posts, I'm fairly pesky and speak up about problems that I encounter, but lack of AF indicators in the VF is just not one of them.

BTW - I read 3 Pentax forums and don't recall hearing much from the community of Kx owners about the lack of AF points being a long term issue. Some are surprised when they first get the camera, but I haven't heard from many kx owners who feel it's a long term issue.

I'm sure Kx loses sales due to AF points, but all entry models have tradeoffs. Every manufacturer removes valuable feature from their entry models for cost and positioning. Nikon eliminated the focus motor, MLU and bracketing from their entry cameras. They also selected an older generation sensor for the D3000.

Picking the kx, I happily traded AF indicators for the best APS-C sensor, AF motor, MLU and bracketing.
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