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06-23-2007, 11:05 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Pentax Hammer Quote
I keep grabbing my camera and asking myself if I'm doing any of the things you mention.... while holding the camera the way I do when shooting.

All I can say on ALL of the above comments is... no on all counts. And yes I'm sure I'm in Manual. I bought my wife her first SLR (Pentax ME Super) 25 years ago. I've always used manual settings on her camera, and continue to do so on mine. I honestly do appreciate you guys trying your best to cover all bases,,, but take my word for the fact that I know how to set up a camera for manual settings, and yes, the settings are what I first mentioned.... not a single doubt about it.
Gary,

I don't doubt for a second that you know how to use M mode to make your settings. :-)

I'm also willing to entertain the possibility that something weird is happening here that is the fault of the camera. If that were the case, then it is quite possible that I am affected by the same problem, and of course I would want to know that.

But, as a matter of principle, I believe - and my long experience bears this out - that possibility is remote. Most of the things we want to blame on products, aren't really the products' fault. Most aren't doesn't mean none are, of course. It's just a question of initial probabilities.

And let me say again that this problem, by definition, is one that is impossible to check consciously. It is the very nature of this sort of mistake that the user NEVER makes it consciously, when he's trying to watch what he does. So there is simply no way to be confident that you're not doing this. In law school, I was invited to join the honors trial advocacy class. I'd already been teaching for many years, was known as a good lecturer, and thought I knew what I was doing as a speaker. Well, part of the honors trial ad class was being videotaped while we made our various presentations. The bottom line was, I was SHOCKED to discover that I had a number of personal ticks or behaviors that I'd never been aware of - like playing with my glasses while I spoke, or scratching my head. I know also, as a software developer with a great interest in UI design, that my users often make mistakes that they are complete unconscious of. That's the point. If they'd been paying attention, they wouldn't have made those mistakes.

So, how DO you test? Well, you'd have to come up with a couple of hypotheses and test them individually. If your hypothesis is that it's the camera's fault, that it occurs in M mode, and that it's random, then put the camera into M mode, set the aperture and shutter speed, record the setting, and shoot as many shots as you can stand to shoot - without touching the camera. Put it on a tripod or simply on a table and use the remote to trigger the camera. Shoot to JPEG, lowest quality and shoot a few hundred shots. Should take just a few miinutes. See if the settings have changed at the end. If you don't have a remote, just set the camera on the table and press the shutter button with a single finger - without actually picking up the camera.

I just did that experiment myself here. I shot 200 photos in about just a minute or two - my salt shaker is now the most photographed item in my kitchen - and the aperture and shutter speed settings didn't change. Not conclusive proof of anything, but if the settings HAD changed, well, THAT would have been interesting. And they didn't. I could go on and try the same experiment at different ISO settings, with different file formats, etc., but I suspect the results would be the same.

Or stop shooting in M, and switch instead to Av, and shoot for a week or a day like that. (Shoot for as long as you think you'd need to shoot in M to see the problem occur.) As I said earlier, in Av, the front e-dial is disabled, and so is the green button, so just handle the camera normally. Don't be self-conscious, in fact, it would be better if you could completely forget that you were doing an experiment - go do some real shooting. But pause now and then to see if your settings are changing. My guess is that they won't be. Of course, it could be that the problem is the camera's fault AND only occurs in M mode. But it could be that the problem occurs only in M mode and is YOUR fault.

Anyway, the odds are that you can never prove that it's your fault, because there's simply no way to catch yourself doing it. Sort of Heisenberg Uncertainty effect here: it ain't gonna happen if you're looking.

Good luck. If you try the experiments and find that there IS something random occurring, well, I'll be quite eager to hear about it.

Will

06-23-2007, 12:46 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Pentax Hammer Quote
I've been having a problem shooting in manual... I can set the F-stop and shutter speed where I want, snap a single picture... then the camera settings change. Is there something I'm missing to keep the settings exactly where I had them before I clicked the shutter?

...probably something stupid I'm missing. Man, do I feel dumb already - LOL.

Thanks for your help!
Well I re read the posts and then tried to get my camera to do the same thing and I can't. Camera set in Manual. DA lens attached. Hit green button to get correct meter reading. Adjusted shutter up or down and aperture up or down to correct exposure at new settings. Tried all three meter settings (spot, multi etc). Took the shot and then checked Info data. The pictures all turned out as per the settings. I then left the settings alone and took shots in lighter and darker areas. The camera took the shots as the camera was set to without self adjusting or changing anything.

Your issue is a mystery to me. I'm sure you understand the camera and assuming that's true then it's back to the shop as far as I can see.

I'd like to hear what the result was.
06-23-2007, 01:04 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Pentax Hammer Quote
I've been having a problem shooting in manual... I can set the F-stop and shutter speed where I want, snap a single picture... then the camera settings change. Is there something I'm missing to keep the settings exactly where I had them before I clicked the shutter?
Gary,

Rereading your brief description, I'm wondering: are you saying this happens EVERY TIME? I mean, you can make this happen any time you want - you just put it into M, set it at f/4 and 1/250s, click the shutter - and when you look down at the settings, they've changed to f/8 and 1/80s or something?

I mean, if THAT's the case - you can set the camera down on a table, touch the shutter button once with the end of your finger without even picking up the camera and the settings change - then heck yes, something's broken in the camera.

Will
06-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #19
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I was taking infrared photos on Friday. ... long exposure, mounted on a tripod... touch just the shutter with my finger, gently... touch nothing else, you know the routine for long exposure. Anyway, same thing was happening then too. After reading every reply here again this evening I decided to get the tripod out again... and this time be very concious of not touching a darn thing but the shutter button. I set up a shot in Manual, F5.6 for 1/500 second, snap a photo, look at the viewfinder... Guess what I see? F/6.7 1/1000 second.

Started playing around more. Yessir, Will... I can make this happen not only often... but every darn time I hit the shutter.

Off to the camera store on Monday. It's going to be a bummer not to have a camera to use for the rest of summer. Last time my wife had her Pentax ME Super sent in the factory had it for 6 or 7 weeks! New toy, and I can't even play with it during my favorite time of the year. Story of my life - LOL.

I'll let you guys know what I hear, and more important... Thanks for all your help!

06-23-2007, 09:17 PM   #20
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I have had the same problem using lenses without an aperture ring. On my FA* lenses I set the camera to manual, the lens to the f/stop I want and nothing ever changes, which works for me.

The lenses without the aperture ring will work for a bit and then loose their memory and go off to another setting for some reason.

Tom
06-23-2007, 09:33 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Pentax Hammer Quote
Started playing around more. Yessir, Will... I can make this happen not only often... but every darn time I hit the shutter....
Oh. I wish I'd thought to ask about this before for wasting so much bandwidth. Well, I think we all agree that if you set the camera to aperture f/x and shutter 1/y second, then merely touching the shutter shouldn't cause those settings to change.

I poked around in the Menus, especially the custom menu settings, to see if there wasn't some option hitherto unknown to me with a name like "Auto Ev in M Mode". There is in fact a setting called "Auto EV Compensation." But I can't figure out what it does. It does NOT appear to cause the behavior you're seeing - I did a couple quick tests here.

Good luck and if you do solve the mystery, please let us know.

Will
06-23-2007, 11:50 PM   #22
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WHAT ABOUT BRACKETING???? It was suggested earlier (as I read this thread)...

but I dont see the response....


My K100D behaves this way in Manual mode with bracketing!!! f/5.6, 1/500 to f/6.7, 1/750
06-24-2007, 03:52 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by kmccanta Quote
WHAT ABOUT BRACKETING???? It was suggested earlier (as I read this thread)...

but I dont see the response....


My K100D behaves this way in Manual mode with bracketing!!! f/5.6, 1/500 to f/6.7, 1/750
I never let the camera bracket . I do it myself (old film days habit) and there may be a few variations on how it does it so I may be way off base here. My understanding of bracketing is, the camera will do 3 or 5 shots in various orders (3 only on the K100D). The bracketed steps are in EV adjustments up or down from the set Av and Tv settings for that given shot. The brackets would be expressed in -0.3, -0.7, -1.0 or 0.3, 0.7, 1.0 etc. The two ratios above that he saw were well outside those variations.
f5.6 to f6.7 represents approx -1 EV and 1/500 to 1/750th represents approx -2 EV, that's a huge change in an exposure and is beyond the cameras normal +/-2 EV range.

I'm uncertain here but does Auto Bracket even work in the manual or bulb mode anyway? That would seem to be at cross purposes in these 2 modes.

06-24-2007, 04:57 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
f5.6 to f6.7 represents approx -1 EV and 1/500 to 1/750th represents approx -2 EV, that's a huge change in an exposure and is beyond the cameras normal +/-2 EV range.
Huh? f5.6 to f6.7 is half a stop (-0.5 EV) difference. So is 1/500 to 1/750. These DO sound like values you would get by having bracketing turned on.

Matthew
06-24-2007, 05:47 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Allen Quote
Huh? f5.6 to f6.7 is half a stop (-0.5 EV) difference. So is 1/500 to 1/750. These DO sound like values you would get by having bracketing turned on.

Matthew
Actually you're right doh. I shouldn't write stuff when I'm still half asleep. Both are roughly -1/2 to -2/3 EV and combined would fit within the camera's range. So my statement that it's outside the cameras +/-2 EV range is incorrect.

But the issue remains the same. My understanding of bracketing in both cameras is that it's represented in +/- EV settings not aperture or shutter speed adjustments.
06-24-2007, 07:37 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
But the issue remains the same. My understanding of bracketing in both cameras is that it's represented in +/- EV settings not aperture or shutter speed adjustments.
Nope. Can't remember how it works on the K100D, but on the K10D, when you turn bracketing on using the bracketing button (back top left corner of the body), and if you're in M mode, when you click the shutter once, the settings on the display panel DO change. For example, I start with f/8.0 and 1/125s, hit the shutter once, and the settings change to f/9.5 and 1/180s, and on the third shutter release they change to f/6.7 and 1/90s. So yes, bracketing would explain ONE aspect of the OP's report, namely, touching the shutter causes the settings to change every time.

In my own faulty responses in this thread, I was assuming (incorrectly as it turns out) that the setting changes occurred infrequently and seemed random. Now we know that's not the case. I didn't think bracketing a great thought initially in part because, on the K10D, it's actually rather difficult to turn bracketing on: you have to use two buttons simultaneously. And I would have thought bracketing would be obvious - as it is so very clearly patterned. But it certainly looks like a good thought to me now.

GARY: Press the bracketing button on your K10D immediately to the left of the viewfinder, in the upper left corner of the back of the camera body. While you press it down, look at the display screen. If the area where you normally see the shutter speed does NOT say "OFF" - if it says "3" or "5" - then I think we may have a winner.

Will
06-24-2007, 07:47 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Nope. Can't remember how it works on the K100D, but on the K10D, when you turn bracketing on using the bracketing button (back top left corner of the body), and if you're in M mode, when you click the shutter once, the settings on the display panel DO change. For example, I start with f/8.0 and 1/125s, hit the shutter once, and the settings change to f/9.5 and 1/180s, and on the third shutter release they change to f/6.7 and 1/90s. So yes, bracketing would explain ONE aspect of the OP's report, namely, touching the shutter causes the settings to change every time.

In my own faulty responses in this thread, I was assuming (incorrectly as it turns out) that the setting changes occurred infrequently and seemed random. Now we know that's not the case. I didn't think bracketing a great thought initially in part because, on the K10D, it's actually rather difficult to turn bracketing on: you have to use two buttons simultaneously. And I would have thought bracketing would be obvious - as it is so very clearly patterned. But it certainly looks like a good thought to me now.

GARY: Press the bracketing button on your K10D immediately to the left of the viewfinder, in the upper left corner of the back of the camera body. While you press it down, look at the display screen. If the area where you normally see the shutter speed does NOT say "OFF" - if it says "3" or "5" - then I think we may have a winner.

Will
Well I really need to get more sleep. But this has been a very good learning experience. Even posts (mine) that were totally in error may have just found 1 possible solution to this issue with Will's further investigations. I know for one, I've learned quite a bit about this feature set I never use by diving back into the manual and doing some reading.

I always did this manually (as I said a hangover from 35mm days) and it is actually easier done through the camera presets in some cases.

So ignore my earlier rambling...
06-24-2007, 08:32 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Well I really need to get more sleep. But this has been a very good learning experience. Even posts (mine) that were totally in error may have just found 1 possible solution to this issue with Will's further investigations. I know for one, I've learned quite a bit about this feature set I never use by diving back into the manual and doing some reading.

I always did this manually (as I said a hangover from 35mm days) and it is actually easier done through the camera presets in some cases.
Heh, no problem, Peter. I've posted with a hangover myself from time to time.

I deserve no credit whatsoever here. It wasn't I who suggested (or even re-suggested) bracketing. Let's wait and see what Gary says about it. I'm crossing my fingers that it turns out to be the solution to the mystery.

Will
06-24-2007, 08:50 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by The Pentax Hammer Quote
I set up a shot in Manual, F5.6 for 1/500 second, snap a photo, look at the viewfinder... Guess what I see? F/6.7 1/1000 second.
Off to the camera store on Monday. It's going to be a bummer not to have a camera to use for the rest of summer. Last time my wife had her Pentax ME Super sent in the factory had it for 6 or 7 weeks! New toy, and I can't even play with it during my favorite time of the year. Story of my life - LOL.

I'll let you guys know what I hear, and more important... Thanks for all your help!
OK a couple of thoughts.... In M mode I assume the original settings are not at the O EV? Does the first photo show your original settings in EXIF (f5.6/ 1/500)? Is the camera then just "resetting" parameters to get to O EV, so it's just the next shot that would be "wrong"? If you use AV or TV w/ EXp compensation wouldn't that be an "effective" manual workaround (assuming exp comp is sticky)? I am assuming a glitch in the software/lens ( M settings not sticky w/ the no aperature ring lenses) (Using non-apertature ring lenses in manual is a bit out of the norm) that may really not be fixable. Try changing some of the program line defaults such as MTF, apreature priority ect. My cameras "on loan" (and its a D anyways so no help) and I don't own the K10 so all this is just speculation but I hate to see you waste the time on a non fixable issue. Best to either find a workaround or pick up a "A" or ap ring type lens to use. Send it in at a later "slow time" , within warranty of course
06-24-2007, 01:46 PM   #30
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Reset the camera settings and try it again. If it continues, bring it back to the store....even though Pentax puts a piece of paper in the box saying...don't bring it back to the store....

ps
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