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01-26-2010, 12:47 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
You can paint a house red by spraying it with some cheap paint, or by making paper cuts in your wang and humping it every day for ten years straight.
LOLOLOLOL 10/10

01-26-2010, 11:42 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
okay, okay

lets ADD the needed space for a dark room, chemicals, and the ridiculously long time it all needs to produce an actual photograph.

unless you are doing it yourself, you will be hard pressed to find a lab that does it for you

and the worst part is, THE CONSUMERS CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE

so who exactly are you breaking your back for?

its a novelty, nothing more (and yes, i have shot film, and yes, i have developed rolls (albiet a long time ago), and yes, i have developed prints in the dark)
Well I posted my question to Kirivon, but since you replied for him, I will respond.

Nobody needs a darkroom to do film anymore. You can load the film into a tank in a changing bag, and you can always use a scanner and do the printing digitally. as far as the chemistry goes, how much space do you think it really takes? My B&W chemistry fits neatly under one side of the bathroom sink.

Next, I'M THE CONSUMER, AND I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

Breaking my back? My Mamiya 645 1000s with prism doesn't break my back. I don't find film developing or printing back breaking either. Personally, I find "digital darkroom" work much more tedious.

As far as the novelty statement is concerned, I just don't know what to say to you. You should take a peek at this thread at photo.net. It lists a great many pros that are still using film. I'm sure you are right though - it's just a novelty thing for them.
01-27-2010, 02:43 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by pingflood Quote
You can paint a house red by spraying it with some cheap paint, or by making paper cuts in your wang and humping it every day for ten years straight.
Blood doesn't stay very red for long once it's outside the body.
01-27-2010, 07:39 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Well I posted my question to Kirivon, but since you replied for him, I will respond.

Nobody needs a darkroom to do film anymore. You can load the film into a tank in a changing bag, and you can always use a scanner and do the printing digitally. as far as the chemistry goes, how much space do you think it really takes? My B&W chemistry fits neatly under one side of the bathroom sink.

Next, I'M THE CONSUMER, AND I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

Breaking my back? My Mamiya 645 1000s with prism doesn't break my back. I don't find film developing or printing back breaking either. Personally, I find "digital darkroom" work much more tedious.

As far as the novelty statement is concerned, I just don't know what to say to you. You should take a peek at this thread at photo.net. It lists a great many pros that are still using film. I'm sure you are right though - it's just a novelty thing for them.
ohh, so...you.. scan, as in.. digitize... your film photos?

hmmm

your arguments are becoming much more convincing..

just out of curiosity, which MF scanner do you own?

01-27-2010, 08:07 AM   #110
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I think that many of those pros use film either because they shoot LF (and it's still hard to compete with a 4x5 B&W or chrome even with the higher end digital), or because they have a way to shoot, process and print that gets them the results they want and they see no need why they should try to replicate it with digital. That doesn't mean film is "better", just that it's what they are used to.
01-27-2010, 01:46 PM   #111
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I think which one is "better" would all depend on one's priorities. Frankly for me, I don't really care. I do know that I really like to shoot with my DSLR and that's all that matter to me. I also know that I had some hilarious laughs reading this thread. That means I do appreciate having film shooters around. 'Cause without them, then we would not have this thread and without this thread then I would not have the laughs which would have meant a world that's a bit more boring....
01-28-2010, 04:21 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
ohh, so...you.. scan, as in.. digitize... your film photos?

hmmm

your arguments are becoming much more convincing..

just out of curiosity, which MF scanner do you own?
I never said I scan, and I don't. All I said is that it was an option for those people who want most of the benefits of film, but can't have or don't want a darkroom. Personally, I love the darkroom. Someday I'd love to own a house with a proper darkroom in it.

For what it's worth, if I was going to buy a scanner, I'd probably get the Epson v500. Also, I'm not anti DSLR. I happen to own two, and I like them both. They are especially handy on vacation. But for image quality, MF film slaughters "Full frame" and smaller digital - even if you scan your negatives and do the rest on the computer. Just the resolution advantage is enough to call it a landslide. That's before you take into account other factors, such as dynamic range, the fact that film is so much more forgiving when it comes to exposure, etc, etc.

Last edited by Steve Beswick; 01-28-2010 at 04:30 AM.
01-28-2010, 05:38 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
For what it's worth, if I was going to buy a scanner, I'd probably get the Epson v500. Also, I'm not anti DSLR. I happen to own two, and I like them both. They are especially handy on vacation. But for image quality, MF film slaughters "Full frame" and smaller digital - even if you scan your negatives and do the rest on the computer. Just the resolution advantage is enough to call it a landslide. That's before you take into account other factors, such as dynamic range, the fact that film is so much more forgiving when it comes to exposure, etc, etc.
Hmm, I have a nice 3 lens Mamiya 7II kit, Epson V700 and Nikon LS-8000 scanners and several Pentax DSLRs. I'm just about to dump the film kit, I've determined that for the types of subject I shoot I can obtain a vastly superior image (resolution and DR wise) using the DSLR and stitching software. Each to their own I guess.

01-28-2010, 07:36 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by dadipentak Quote
I emphatically disagree. Unless one did one's own darkroom work, film photography was an exercise in futility as far as I'm concerned. Digital technology has made photography meaningfully accessible to the likes of me (but I can understand that that's not universally regarded as a welcome development ;~)
I'd have to emphatically agree with most of that disagreement. Actually, I'd put it the other way around from the OP--that one can better enjoy film photography and make the darkroom experience worthwhile by learning the basics in the digital realm. Instant gratification is an instant teacher. B&W was the best teacher in film, because I (as a 13 year old) processed the film quickly and cheaply in my bathroom. However, even that is daunting for most. Learning color slides was an expensive undertaking.

I don't have a darkroom any more, but film still beckons. It is terrific that learning the basics of exposure, focus, camera steadiness, and on and on do not require an olfactory challenge any more.

Oh, and 30 years ago we also had endless debates about which piece of equipment was marginally better and how to squeeze more performance out of it.

Last edited by GeneV; 01-28-2010 at 07:50 AM.
01-28-2010, 12:53 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by distudio Quote
Hmm, I have a nice 3 lens Mamiya 7II kit, Epson V700 and Nikon LS-8000 scanners and several Pentax DSLRs. I'm just about to dump the film kit, I've determined that for the types of subject I shoot I can obtain a vastly superior image (resolution and DR wise) using the DSLR and stitching software. Each to their own I guess.
Call me crazy, but sometimes I like to photograph things that actually move. You know, like people, cars, animals, flags, etc. But hey, if you are going to toss that film gear just let me know, I'll be happy to "recycle" it for you.
01-28-2010, 01:14 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
I'd have to emphatically agree with most of that disagreement. Actually, I'd put it the other way around from the OP--that one can better enjoy film photography and make the darkroom experience worthwhile by learning the basics in the digital realm. Instant gratification is an instant teacher. B&W was the best teacher in film, because I (as a 13 year old) processed the film quickly and cheaply in my bathroom. However, even that is daunting for most. Learning color slides was an expensive undertaking.

I don't have a darkroom any more, but film still beckons. It is terrific that learning the basics of exposure, focus, camera steadiness, and on and on do not require an olfactory challenge any more.

Oh, and 30 years ago we also had endless debates about which piece of equipment was marginally better and how to squeeze more performance out of it.
I hear this a lot from old film shooters that switch to digital, but I don't agree. The reason that B&W was, and still is, the best teacher is that you had to think - There is no green mode, there is no mashing the shutter down until you get the image you want. Instead, you peer through the viewfinder until you are sure you have it right, exposure, composition, focus. The cost of shooting film made you learn to get it right.
01-28-2010, 01:28 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
The reason that B&W was, and still is, the best teacher is that you had to think.
Your statement may apply to film but isn't the domain of B&W alone. Both B&W and Colour have elements that need to be mastered to take decent pictures but they share most of the basics. It's simply that B&W is indelibly linked in our minds to all the great artists and pioneers of photography. The fact is, they didn't have a choice and because of that, B&W remained the standard because of Colour merely being considered as a gimmick and for snapshots only up until the second half of the 20th century.

Last edited by Damn Brit; 01-28-2010 at 05:21 PM.
01-28-2010, 01:33 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
The reason that B&W was, and still is, the best teacher is that you had to think
I kinda disagree with this? I learned with B&W many many years ago and I find it a much easier proposition than colour. B&W is subject, shape & light. Colour is subject, shape, light AND colour - yikes. Put it this way, I can often take what I consider to be a shot and make an acceptably dramatic monochrome image out of it... but the colour original makes me bile. Is that just me?
01-28-2010, 01:42 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Call me crazy, but sometimes I like to photograph things that actually move. You know, like people, cars, animals, flags, etc. But hey, if you are going to toss that film gear just let me know, I'll be happy to "recycle" it for you.
There are ways to deal with many types of moving objects, animal photography how ever is one area that I'm not experienced with, the Mamiya 7II is more of a contemplative camera ;-)

01-28-2010, 01:50 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
I kinda disagree with this? I learned with B&W many many years ago and I find it a much easier proposition than colour. B&W is subject, shape & light. Colour is subject, shape, light AND colour - yikes. Put it this way, I can often take what I consider to be a shot and make an acceptably dramatic monochrome image out of it... but the colour original makes me bile. Is that just me?
It was also easier because a teenager could buy a bag of D-76, a stop and a fixer and still have some bucks left over for another roll of Tri-X. It was the nearest thing to digital in granting the economic freedom to shoot and to learn.

Just a few rolls of Kodacolor and processing, and I would have bought my camera again.
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