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06-24-2007, 01:45 PM   #16
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The k10d is my first SLR camera. You know if you are good at composing images from your POS. There is a green mode on the K10d and the priority modes - experimenting with them one by one - allows you to lower yourself into the camera. I have had mine for about two weeks and I'm comfortable that I'm going to get good photos when I take it away on holiday. It has taken time, but not because of the complexities of the camera itself but because of the complexities of photography. I believe reviewers think it is a complicated camera because it is quite different to other dSLRs and so they see it as difficult to get used to.

06-24-2007, 01:52 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by pixelpruner Quote
The k10d is my first SLR camera. You know if you are good at composing images from your POS. There is a green mode on the K10d and the priority modes - experimenting with them one by one - allows you to lower yourself into the camera. I have had mine for about two weeks and I'm comfortable that I'm going to get good photos when I take it away on holiday. It has taken time, but not because of the complexities of the camera itself but because of the complexities of photography. I believe reviewers think it is a complicated camera because it is quite different to other dSLRs and so they see it as difficult to get used to.
I have to agree, even though I haven't used the K10D, I can attest from the "scenes" on the K100D. I find I'm using the "Program" and "Shutter Priority" mainly for general and sports/flight usage. I've used "Aperture Prior" when light has an issue (and I'm using cheap lenses mind you), and "Manual" for -- obviously -- manual lenses. Why the K10D keeps getting marks against it for not sporting the Point'n Shoot expected "scene" modes is beyond me. They are rather useless on any dSLR IMHO, and I'm talking from the standpoint of a photo noob myself.

I went with the K100D because it was cheap and the in-camera, real-time JPEG processing shots were better (at least at the time of purchase) than the K10D. I could easily argue why even a noob may wish to consider the K10D. Especially if they will take the time to process photos or are going to drop more than a few bucks on lenses. And if a firmware update becomes available (let alone if one already is) that improves the in-camera, real-time JPEG processing shots, then the K100D really loses its only advantage (other than saving $400).
06-24-2007, 02:45 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Plus the thing I love about this forum is how helpful and polite everyone here is. I can't remember a single post or answer (other than Rice High) that came across as arrogant or "I know more than you". There are no dumb questions here and I've even gotten private messages from some members who wanted to offer a hand. Everyone here from the best to the newest is on some sort of learning curve.
I couldn't agree with you more. This forum is full of very helpful and knowledgeable people. I've learned quite a bit just reading comments in it. Thanks for the reminder
06-24-2007, 05:54 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Get the camera and order this book at the same time:
NED BUNNELL: Magic Lantern K10D Guide
These guides are a wonderful resource for camera owners at almost any skill level.
Second the recommendation on the Magic Lantern Guide as that's how I learned the basics of my K100D as well.
I don't know if it's really good for experienced SLR owners, as most of the content would be a distraction.
But definitely for anyone coming from Point'n Shoot, and a crapload better than the cryptic Pentax manual at times.

06-24-2007, 06:12 PM   #20
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If I were you I'd look at the difference between the two cameras and wash this against your personal preferences (ergonomics as well as financial). I've got the K10D and I love it. Even on my prior DSLR (istDS) I never used the scene modes - I just used Auto when I couldn't be bothered shooting with Av/Tv/M. The K10D gives you a fully 'Auto' option too if you ever feel the need to go there. It doesn't have a reassuring smiley face on the dial (!) but it's there.

Everything else comes with practice and experimentation, and DSLRs reward both those things. If you like the feel of the K10D, get it. If you like the feel of the K100, get it. You shouldn't regret either. And whichever you choose, get good lenses, because you definitely won't regret that!
06-24-2007, 07:00 PM   #21
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It comes down to how much money you have to spend. Buy the machine with the most features you can think of given your price range. Don't expect to create world class images out of the box - unless you are a reincarnation of Adams/Weston/Cunningham/Cartier-Bresson(fill in the rest). Expect to learn - start out shooting JPEG's in P mode. Read everything you can get your hands on and experiment. Stop talking about specs, PP nuances and how to get more lenses. Use what you have - join a photo club - take classes and ask --- just ask - most people will give you an answer/opinion. If no one wants to talk - move on - leave them behind.

Start out with a small set of lenses, learn/read all you can. DSLR's in green/P mode will return good images 95% of the time. By working you can learn to live in that 5% - beyond what auto will do for you - but you have to understand what is going on. A pricey camera will not give you experince - it is all about the image - just remember that - it is not the equipment - it is the image.

PDL ---- PS get the K10D if you can afford it - you can always grow into a more advanced machine.

Last edited by PDL; 06-24-2007 at 07:02 PM. Reason: spelling - and other stuff
06-24-2007, 07:32 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Stop talking about specs, PP nuances and how to get more lenses.
Yes, this is so easy to do. I'm an engineer and I quickly found myself doing such. What really has taught me the most in my 5 weeks of having the camera was firing off 1,000 shots yesterday (about 400 RAW PEF, 600 JPEG). Learned a lot.

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Start out with a small set of lenses, learn/read all you can.
At the risk of sounding like even more of a broken record, regardless of whether you buy the K100D or K10D, the $150 rebate (good through 7/31) on the DA 50-200mm f/4.0-5.6 when purchased with either camera (body-only or body+kit lense) gives you a two (2) lens solution for peanuts to start. So it's really hard for me not to recommend starting with that -- especially since you can only take advantage of it when you buy the camera itself (an additional $50 rebate beyond the $50+$50 rebates on the lens+camera separately give you).

Also note that several people (including the board administrator I believe) like the older Pentax AF 28-105mm lenses -- either the standard [IF] f/4.0-5.6 or AL [IF] f/3.2-4.5 -- for a general "walkabout" lens. Sure, it's only a 3.75x zoom range and no 18mm (27mm equivalent 35mm) "wide" and can't deliver anything like the 6.9x zoom range a Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 will give you (let alone 10x+ of others). But the image quality, especially in the corners, as well as barrel distortion/pincushion is worse on the 18-125mm (let alone a 18-200mm, 18-250mm, 28-300mm, etc... which start to have more vignetting and CA issues too). Again, I wouldn't even look at anything 10x or bigger -- you're going to make all sorts of image compromises (and you might as well just stay Point'n Shoot IMHO).

I have the standard Pentax AF 28-105mm [IF] f/4.0-5.6 with an added Hoya 62mm circular polarizer (same size as what the Sigma 18-125mm takes as well). It only cost me $80 used from B&H and was well worth it -- it's about 2x the price new. The Pentax AF 28-105mm f/3.2-4.5 AL [IF] is faster, sharper and about $200 new (never seen it used and at $200 new, it's only $40 more than the non-AL version new), although I've heard a few people say the AL's build quality fell apart on them (rumor?). Ironically the AL version takes a smaller 58mm filter size.

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
DSLR's in green/P mode will return good images 95% of the time.
Agreed. Just firing off hundreds of shots at Green (K10D) and P (K100D) with it will teach you a lot. I've taken about 2,500, maybe 3,000, now. And I know I haven't got as deep as it gets yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
PDL ---- PS get the K10D if you can afford it - you can always grow into a more advanced machine.
I was hopeful someone could confirm or deny whether more of the recent K10D firmwares improve on the processing when shooting in JPEG mode. Although most photo experts or those who will post process most everything they take will always shoot RAW PEF, the biggest factor I've seen for people like myself -- coming from Point'n Shoot -- is the quality of the JPEG modes out of the K10D versus the K100D. I just want to make sure I'm not proliferating a difference that has long (or even more recently) been addressed by a K10D firmware update.
06-24-2007, 08:29 PM   #23
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There is nothing wrong with K10D JPEG's. This myth needs to be ignored. Get the camera and shoot it - judge for your self. On my K10D - no one has judged the image quality to be anything but top notch.

If you do not own a K10D - your opinion is meaningless - sorry to be so blunt, but D*mn, enough is enough. Out of the box K10D JPEG's are not as oversaturated and oversharpened as both C&N - when I have shown people the differences between my images and C&N images - they, to a person, say that the colors are better from my Pentax. So who are you going to believe - one person with a biased site? Get a grip - please note that this "reviewer" also said the K100D, *ist DS and *ist D JPEG's were "soft" too. No clue - absolutely no clue.

PDL

06-24-2007, 09:01 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
Second the recommendation on the Magic Lantern Guide as that's how I learned the basics of my K100D as well.
I don't know if it's really good for experienced SLR owners, as most of the content would be a distraction.
But definitely for anyone coming from Point'n Shoot, and a crapload better than the cryptic Pentax manual at times.
I have the Lantern guide for the K10D on my wishlist
06-24-2007, 09:09 PM   #25
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PDL - Word.

I am completely happy with the K10D's performance in jpg. The full-size images (3,800pixels on the longest side) equate to 1.36METRES (4 feet) in length, and at that magnification they are as good as your abilities at focusing and holding the camera steady and the quality of your lens. If you want to shoot raw, shoot raw - you'll do even better. But even an A3 sheet of paper is a third of the size of the image taken by the camera and at jpg quality any issues you have with the image will almost certainly not come from the camera.

I respect sites like dpreview, but you have to see their comparisons in context. If you had two or three dslrs to choose between you'd do the same as they do : test their absolute limits and compare the results. But what is necessary for the comparison is not always applicable in real life (and even dpreview notes that any softness, if it exists, is at a 100% view). You can look at resolution charts all you like and bemoan the fact that at 100% crop the K10D jpg image is apparently softer than another camera. But I work on a 17" monitor at work and when I show my photos to people they're sized DOWN. SIGNFICANTLY. I don't even email out full-size photos from my 3megapixel Fuji Finepix because they're cumbersome to mail. That's how big an image we're talking about.

So if you can't quite read the date of manufacture on the writing on the crest on the neck of the bottle of vermouth on a table that's two or three metres away, then perhaps ask yourself why you don't MOVE CLOSER to the bottle!!

But to bring this around to your question, nothing changes: you have to decide which camera will suit your purposes better. If it's the K10D, do it. If it's the K100D, do it.

Then go out and take some photos!
06-24-2007, 09:29 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryML Quote
Most important, get some books on photography technique and spend some time mastering the basics of things like lens focal length, field of view, aperture, depth of field, shutter speed, etc. You also want to learn about composition, lighting and the other ingredients of an interesting photograph. Technique is more important than equipment if you want to take better photographs. Many people are preoccupied with getting the best equipment but never make much effort to learn about photography.
I have one book so far and access to another more advanced title when I'm ready for it. I do plan on trying to learn about the craft of photography and not get too caught up in the equipment. I have kind of settled on the K10D because of the weather sealing and the pentaprisim viewer as I mentioned. I also like the feel and a few other things. I have a family member who has a tripod and a few other things I could use so my budget can swing the K10D and a few lenses. Can't use his lenses, he's a Canon man

There is plenty for me to digest. I just want to get my hands on my own camera and learn by doing.
06-24-2007, 10:48 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by KFrog Quote
I understand the K10D is a serious camera but lately I've become a little concerned about what I've been reading about in reviews of the camera. The common theme is the K10D is for those who take the time to get the most out of it, and that it is not suited for beginners. For me this would be my first DSLR. I have a Canon A80, a fine little P&S, but I want to try my hand at DSLR photography. I'm a complete beginner but I've been reading as much about Pentax DSLR's and lenses as I can get my hands on before I make a purchase.

I suspect the K100D is better suited for a rookie but I like the features (weather sealed body especially) and the feel of the K10D better. I had a chance to hold one and take a few snaps with it at Houston Camera Exchange in Houston, TX. A little more weight, good grip and a nicer viewer.

I guess my basic question is how complex do you think the K10D really is and should I reconsider the K100D?

Thanks.
Hi,

Get the K10D. If you can afford it, get it. It is sort of like telling someone that just got his driver's license and want a fast car, " buy a Kia first and when you're used to the speed of a Kia, go ahead and buy a Corvette".

The K10D can be fully automatic and can operate just like a P&S. As you learn, you will be able to take advantage of the camera's features and there are many. If you buy a lesser camera now, as you grow as a photographer, you will regret it.

Check here for a "How-to" manual for the K10D. k10dbook home
Magic Lanterns has also published a book that I believe is available now.

You usually get what you pay for.
06-24-2007, 10:54 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by KFrog Quote
Can't use his lenses, he's a Canon man

There is plenty for me to digest. I just want to get my hands on my own camera and learn by doing.
It's for you to convince him to get a Pentax.
06-25-2007, 12:20 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by k10dbook Quote
Hi,

The K10D can be fully automatic and can operate just like a P&S. As you learn, you will be able to take advantage of the camera's features and there are many. If you buy a lesser camera now, as you grow as a photographer, you will regret it.

You usually get what you pay for.

Hes right, i guess thats something the reviews omitted from their blurbs. Its actually pretty easy to use in green mode granted you make a few changes in the menu, and thats it. I used green mode till i was comfortable and still use it every now and then when i cant be stuffed visualizing a outcome

The K10 is also my first ever dslr having only previously used film cameras from canon and pentax. It was the quality and colour from my trusty mx50, better than my all my A series (their great for black and white) even though i only ever had the kit lens for my pentax! That convinced me to get the K10. Brought me a spotmatic that came with about 5 m42 lenses, picked up an adapter....been having a blast ever since!
06-25-2007, 01:34 AM   #30
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If you have both the K10D and K100D, please comment on JPEG processing ...

QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
There is nothing wrong with K10D JPEG's. This myth needs to be ignored. Get the camera and shoot it - judge for your self. On my K10D - no one has judged the image quality to be anything but top notch. If you do not own a K10D - your opinion is meaningless - sorry to be so blunt, but D*mn, enough is enough ...
So who are you going to believe - one person with a biased site? Get a grip - please note that this "reviewer" also said the K100D, *ist DS and *ist D JPEG's were "soft" too. No clue - absolutely no clue.
Er, no. dpreview clearly differentiated the K100D from its predecessors -- heavily. Which is why I wonder if the K10D just needs a "successor" to have the same, as several sites have complained about the JPEG processing of the K10D. I was hopeful a firmware update would address this as well, if it hasn't already.

The reason why I harp on this is because I am considering just buying the K10D myself, and giving my K100D to my wife. But since I shoot largely JPEG because I just don't have time to process RAW shots, it matters to me how the K10D does it. Yes, I could just shoot everything RAW with the K10D and batch process it directly to JPEG outside the camera. And that's an option I'm considering. But it is still a consideration for myself -- coming from a Point'n Shoot -- to get the Pentax solution that caters to JPEG shots.

Yes, it's more than just dpreview.com. I've actually seen several reviews complain about the processing of the JPEG processing of the K10D. I'll find them if you want. The rule is with the K10D, "shoot RAW." If you're an expert, this is a no-brainer. But, again, if you're coming from a "Point'n Shoot," and you're not going to process, this can be a significant consideration. Yes, I may sound like a broken record, but even though you have a K10D ...

I'd like someone who has both the K100D and K10D to comment on their opinion of the JPEG quality differences.

QuoteOriginally posted by bt*ist Quote
PDL - Word.
I am completely happy with the K10D's performance in jpg ... But what is necessary for the comparison is not always applicable in real life (and even dpreview notes that any softness, if it exists, is at a 100% view). You can look at resolution charts all you like and bemoan the fact that at 100% crop the K10D jpg image is apparently softer than another camera. But I work on a 17" monitor at work and when I show my photos to people they're sized DOWN. SIGNFICANTLY. I don't even email out full-size photos from my 3megapixel Fuji Finepix because they're cumbersome to mail.
Which means you're just shooting JPEG for your 17" desktop. And from that standpoint, you are correct. I don't dispute that.

But I'm trying to point out that I am a SLR noob who also came from a Point'n Shoot and I have a much different perspective and standpoint. I'm the stupid, ignorance schmuck who is just going to fire off a majority of my shots JPEG and use them. I'll display them on 1920x1080/1200 and even 2560x1600 displays at tim4es. I'll even use them to -- gasp -- even print out at 8x10! Why? Because I'm a noob. Because I'm not going to shoot RAW all-the-time. Because I'm not interested in spending a lot of time for post-processing. Because I just do.

Now with all that said ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Kaimarx Quote
Hes right, i guess thats something the reviews omitted from their blurbs. Its actually pretty easy to use in green mode granted you make a few changes in the menu, and thats it. I used green mode till i was comfortable and still use it every now and then when i cant be stuffed visualizing a outcome
I have agree that any of the reviews that assign value to the "Point'n Shoot" modes are utterly missing the point, especially since even I don't use them at all on my K100 (and really never have). You don't need them and the K10D will give you far more capability, let alone is just "easier to use" when you want the power and quick changes. I further agree that the K10D is much better and you can grow and go farther, as even I run into the limitations of control on the K100D at times. Hell, I'd also like to have the RAW/JPEG button on the K100D like the K10D, and wonder why the more "entry-level" K100D doesn't offer it for us noobs like the K10D -- since we're more likely to be switching between the two! So the "scenes" argument is utter non-sense, I haven't made that point for the K100D -- unlike some others -- so I'm not even remotely giving it any consideration.

So, in all those respects, I 100% agree that there is no other reason to go with anything but the K10D. About the only, other, additional reason I even pointed out was the very limited aspect of cost. Because if cost is really an issue, it means you aren't spending much on lenses either or that would be a cost issue too. The K10D is so worth the extra $400 over the K100D if you're going to shoot RAW most of the time -- so worth it I would not even remotely debate it.

But that doesn't matter, for a user like myself coming from a Point'n Shoot, if the K10D gives me worse JPEG output than the K100D. Why? Again, we're not the smartest or best or brightest noobs either, and we tend to want to shoot JPEG for various reasons, not of all which make sense. But because we do, JPEG output -- at high-resolution display so 125+ DPI monitors of 2000+ pixels across and we might have a capture to put to a 8x10 print out --still significant considerations. Besides, at sub-$400 for the body, the K100D isn't a "significant investment" and one can always upgrade to the K10D at a latter date, especially when other investments in lenses are made.

So I'm sorry if I "offended" some of you K10D users. But I don't think you're giving my point -- really my only point -- its fair consideration. If it wasn't for this, I'd be all for the K10D over the K100D -- so worth the extra $400. But for those coming from a "Point'n Shoot," the fidelity of the JPEG at full resolution is a major consideration -- even if I seemingly make it a microcosm of an issue -- it really is for us.

Last edited by bjsmith; 06-25-2007 at 01:50 AM.
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