Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-20-2010, 09:48 AM   #1
Inactive Account




Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Athens
Posts: 11
Why I want a FF dSLR

The reasons I would like an FF dSLR are two.

First is that what the eye percepts as detail on a photo isn't the "lines per mm"
but the "lines per frame" capacity of the lens. So FF lenses on APS-C gear suffer
a 0.66x penalty on their real dissolving capacity because of the croping factor.
Profesionists hate this so the brands that deal largely with them have the FF choises for them . I hate this also but all my FF lenses are either pentaxes or
M42's so there's not much to do .
The second reason regards the size of the single "pixel" which for the same analysis (Mp) is (2/3x2/3 =4/9) less than half the area than it is on a FFsensor.
This means the light-sample picked is much less rappresentative of the light received for the same exposure value.This results to noise and is cured by interpolation which results to softness and is cured by sharpening .
Today's softwares can do magic things but I prefer an image that is OK from the begining than a well cured one . Makes me feel somehow insecure .

01-20-2010, 12:08 PM   #2
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
You could come up with similarly mathematically sound reasons to prefer a smaller format. The question is, how does any of that relate to reality? There *are* real differences betwene FF and APS-C, but they really aren't captured by the above.
01-20-2010, 02:09 PM   #3
Ash
Community Manager
Loyal Site Supporter
Ash's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,683
We've gone through similar discussions many times before.
You may want to read through this comprehensive thread:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/71896-low-noise-be...uals-zero.html
01-20-2010, 04:32 PM   #4
Veteran Member
Shashinki's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 357
I'm a little nearsighted, so I think I will need a pentax medium format camera to cope with that.

01-20-2010, 05:28 PM   #5
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada
Posts: 2,014
QuoteOriginally posted by pniauris Quote
The reasons I would like an FF dSLR are two.

First is that what the eye percepts as detail on a photo isn't the "lines per mm"
but the "lines per frame" capacity of the lens. So FF lenses on APS-C gear suffer
a 0.66x penalty on their real dissolving capacity because of the croping factor.
Profesionists hate this so the brands that deal largely with them have the FF choises for them . I hate this also but all my FF lenses are either pentaxes or
M42's so there's not much to do .
The second reason regards the size of the single "pixel" which for the same analysis (Mp) is (2/3x2/3 =4/9) less than half the area than it is on a FFsensor.
This means the light-sample picked is much less rappresentative of the light received for the same exposure value.This results to noise and is cured by interpolation which results to softness and is cured by sharpening .
Today's softwares can do magic things but I prefer an image that is OK from the begining than a well cured one . Makes me feel somehow insecure .
If you think you will become a better photographer because you have a 24 X 36 mm sensor, you're in for a bit of disillusion. For 99.99% of photographers, even above the average photographers, using full frame won't make any difference. The only positive aspect you'll have from the start is "bragging rights", nothing more.
01-20-2010, 05:30 PM   #6
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,255
QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
If you think you will become a better photographer because you have a 24 X 36 mm sensor, you're in for a bit of disillusion. For 99.99% of photographers, even above the average photographers, using full frame won't make any difference. The only positive aspect you'll have from the start is "bragging rights", nothing more.
Will my bragging rights be proportionally larger when I buy 645D?
01-21-2010, 05:35 AM   #7
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada
Posts: 2,014
QuoteOriginally posted by asdf Quote
Will my bragging rights be proportionally larger when I buy 645D?
They sure will, but I'm going to be there bragging with you.
01-21-2010, 05:57 AM   #8
Pentaxian
Lowell Goudge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 15,361
QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
If you think you will become a better photographer because you have a 24 X 36 mm sensor, you're in for a bit of disillusion. For 99.99% of photographers, even above the average photographers, using full frame won't make any difference. The only positive aspect you'll have from the start is "bragging rights", nothing more.
well said, but I think even in these relitively tough economic times, there are still enough people who want to buy the most expensive, regardless of skill level.

Even in our own forum, there are tons of posts like "I just bought a K7, it is my first camera, what are the best settings"

It is not that I am making fun of these people, hell they are supporting my camera company after all, but just like different films in the past, not every camera is good at every photographic situation. Full frame gives you bigger files with more pixles, but in many many shots all that storage space is a waste.

I still go out regularly and shoot with my *istD. i know it is only 6MP but it still takes excellent shots, and has very pleasing High ISO characteristics. For me, and I print up to 13 x 19 at home, If I frame carefully I can use *istD prints at that size and they are every bit as good as my K10D and K7D. Sure, if you use a microscope you might see some more resolution in the shots taken with my newer cameras but the average person does not inspect a 13 x 19 print with a microscope, usually they are a couple of feet back,.

01-21-2010, 10:26 AM   #9
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,352
Horses for courses...

I went from K100D to K-x and then seriously contemplated a D700.

After smacking myself in the face I realised that for my amateur level, carting around several kilos of equipment is ridiculous.

At the same time, Pentax FAs would be very well served by a FF sensor. Talking as a rank noob, I also understand that several DA primes are useful on FF.

If Pentax were to go the FF route, my preference would be for them to keep it small (D300 or under size). Size and weatherproofing (as has been said many times) can be a great differentiator.
01-21-2010, 01:36 PM   #10
Veteran Member
jsherman999's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,228
I think I've completed a full-circle.

Started out with aps-c because it was 'good enough' for my level of experience,
then lusted after FF because I wanted 'more', and now, I'm fully realizing the
benefits of a high-quality smaller system - having the equipment with me because
it isn't a pain to lug around is 99% more important than the slight IQ boost a FF kit
would bring me.

Now I'm even starting to think about things like the GF1 or EP2 more than FF.










.
01-22-2010, 09:45 AM   #11
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Southeastern USA
Posts: 75
Wow!

The color rendition on that 15mm is amazing. It also seems to have at times a 3-D type effect.

AND relating to the FF discussion, all of my lenses are FF and I have always considered that when buying lenses

the 15 Limited will change that as I must buy one soon. Maybe its image circle will fill enough of the FF frame to be useful sometimes

The "lines per frame" thought in the OP makes a lot of sense. I have always thought that FF contributes a quality I refer to as presence
01-22-2010, 01:33 PM   #12
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
The lines-per-frame argument appears to make sense at first, but totally ignores the respect to which the sensor's resolution (not size) might be a factor as well. I don't know the science, but I know the reality: starting from my 6MP camera and kit lens, I was able to get more resolution *either* by switching to a better-resolving lens on the same camera *or* by switching to a 10MP camera with my same lens. If it were as simple as imaging a lens has a fixed number of lines per square inch it can resolve and that simple math involving sensor sizes was all you needed to calculate lines per frame, then it would not be possible to get more resolution by adding more pixels without changing sensor size - and yet this *is* in fact possible. And yet if this were only true for lenses that were already so great they were outresolving the sensor, it shouldn't have been possible to improve the results by getting better lenses and yet it *is* in fact possible. So the simple relatonship between sensor size and resolution in lines per frame proposed in the OP cannot possibly reflect reality.

So like I said, FF has some real benefits, and there are gobs and gobs of existing threads discussing these. But the analysis posted in the OP does not hold water.
01-22-2010, 01:52 PM   #13
Inactive Account




Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bloomington, Illinois
Posts: 66
QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
If you think you will become a better photographer because you have a 24 X 36 mm sensor, you're in for a bit of disillusion. For 99.99% of photographers, even above the average photographers, using full frame won't make any difference. The only positive aspect you'll have from the start is "bragging rights", nothing more.
I guess that makes me in the .01%. I have resisted buying a digital SLR for many years. I have a point and shoot and camcorder-camera but use film SLR's for what I need. On short telescopes like a 80x500 or 120x600 I need larger sensors for prime focus. Otherwise the field of view is lost. Not only for astrophotography but wildlife as well.

William
01-22-2010, 02:11 PM   #14
Junior Member




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 44
Here in the Northwest we have long winters with very short days - it's entirely dark out just about every day when I leave work, so in the winters I shoot a *lot* of night photos.

A crop sensor just doesn't cut it. My K-7 is relatively good up to ISO 800 (some visible noise, but doesn't really detract from the picture), but is absolutely horrendous at 1600-3200. Even at f/1.4 it's hard to get a shutter speed good enough to get clear pictures. I would *kill* for a Pentax camera that has decent ISO 3200 performance.
01-22-2010, 02:16 PM   #15
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toronto (for now)
Posts: 1,749
What did you do before digital arrived?

QuoteOriginally posted by potatolicious Quote
Here in the Northwest we have long winters with very short days - it's entirely dark out just about every day when I leave work, so in the winters I shoot a *lot* of night photos.

A crop sensor just doesn't cut it. My K-7 is relatively good up to ISO 800 (some visible noise, but doesn't really detract from the picture), but is absolutely horrendous at 1600-3200. Even at f/1.4 it's hard to get a shutter speed good enough to get clear pictures. I would *kill* for a Pentax camera that has decent ISO 3200 performance.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, capacity, dslr, ff, lenses, photography, results
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First DSLR drifter Welcomes and Introductions 10 02-24-2010 02:47 PM
K100ds: best DSLR ever, or greatest DSLR ever? Steve Beswick Pentax DSLR Discussion 71 01-19-2010 02:47 AM
Trying out the new DSLR siric Post Your Photos! 5 07-09-2008 08:09 PM
First DSLR Von Ryan Pentax DSLR Discussion 26 11-25-2007 11:12 AM
First DSLR, Which one will do? seriousam Pentax DSLR Discussion 18 04-12-2007 07:04 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:49 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top