K20d - doubts about live view and long shutter noise reduction...

José Ramos · 01-26-2010, 11:55 AM

Hi there.

Before I decide to sell my K20d I'll ask here the same question I posted on dpreview, as this forum seems to have a bigger and more knowledgeable attendance.

I had a K10d and I bought a K20d mainly for the live view feature, to be able to properly compose with a 4stop or 10 stop ND filter, without having to unscrew the filters to compose. As you know, the viewfinder gets almost black with a 10 stop filter screwed on, and many people told me I'd be able to compose through the live view.

Today I tried my K20d for the first time in the field, and I noticed that the live view isn't helping me at all. I can see a brighter image in the viewfinder, even when I increase ISO to 3200 and opening the aperture.

As such, do you have any idea how do I amplify the live view image, making the image clearer with the 10 stop filter on?

I was also extremely surprised when I noticed that the K20d doesn't have an option to turn off the long shutter noise reduction... Isn't there any firmware hack that would allow me to turn it off?

Thanks
José Ramos

Gooshin · 01-26-2010, 11:57 AM

lol

who told you that live view would somehow negate the light loss of a 10 stop ND filter?

José Ramos · 01-26-2010, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

lol

who told you that live view would somehow negate the light loss of a 10 stop ND filter?

There you have it... Live-view mode - good for landscape photography? [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

And I was and I always am on a tight budget...

Ben_Edict · 01-26-2010, 01:53 PM

The thread in DPrev is a mix-up of the LievView capabilities of different cameras. The K20 LiveView is pretty limited. I have never used LV with a dense filter, but I do not think, that it is useful with a ND400 filter as one poster claimed - not during daylight or without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth.

Noise Reduction above 30s expsoures is unfortunately a feature, that is not switcheable and there are (to my knowledge) no Firmware hacks, that adress this (known) issue. I personally try to limit my expsoures to 30s, to avoid the forced darkframe.

Ben

P.S:: Though the LV of the K20 may be a bit disappointing, the real viewfinder is great for an APS-C sized camera and an angle finder might give your back some relief. Also you could add a Zigview to the viewfinder, which can also be used via a video extension cable remotely.

José Ramos · 01-26-2010, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

The thread in DPrev is a mix-up of the LievView capabilities of different cameras. The K20 LiveView is pretty limited. I have never used LV with a dense filter, but I do not think, that it is useful with a ND400 filter as one poster claimed - not during daylight or without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth.

Noise Reduction above 30s expsoures is unfortunately a feature, that is not switcheable and there are (to my knowledge) no Firmware hacks, that adress this (known) issue. I personally try to limit my expsoures to 30s, to avoid the forced darkframe.

Ben

P.S:: Though the LV of the K20 may be a bit disappointing, the real viewfinder is great for an APS-C sized camera and an angle finder might give your back some relief. Also you could add a Zigview to the viewfinder, which can also be used via a video extension cable remotely.

Well... I already have a Pentax K10d, with the same great viewfinder. Considering that 90% of the photography I make is landscape photography, with lots long exposures using ND filters, does it make any sense to stick with the K20d. I have 4 extra megapixels, but apart from that there isn't a single advantage, and a HUGE drawback with the noise reduction feature... What do you think?

Gooshin · 01-26-2010, 02:00 PM

then the K10D is the better tool for you at the moment.

Damn Brit · 01-26-2010, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth.

That is a good suggestion, it works for large format. I know when I have used LV in low light conditions it has been much better than the VF, covering the LCD with a dark cloth should create the same benefit.

Ben_Edict · 01-26-2010, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by José Ramos

Well... I already have a Pentax K10d, with the same great viewfinder. Considering that 90% of the photography I make is landscape photography, with lots long exposures using ND filters, does it make any sense to stick with the K20d. I have 4 extra megapixels, but apart from that there isn't a single advantage, and a HUGE drawback with the noise reduction feature... What do you think?

If you search in the forum for advantages of the K20 over the K10 you'll find a few more issues, which make an upgrade worthwhile. I have kept my K10 as a second body, but mainly use the K20. Two major advantages are the better high ISO performance of the K20 and the slightly faster AF – and the possibility to store AF correction factors for your AF lenses, if the AF is off (front or back focusing). THere are some more differences, but in between the improvements, the NR is an annoying oversight by the Pentax engineers. It should have been easy to make that switcheable. If that is really important for you, stick with the K10. Also, the K-x might be considered a better upgrade option, due to its seemingly excellent high ISO performance and further improved AF (even the K-m/K2000 has a noticeably better AF, than the K20).

Ben

Ben_Edict · 01-26-2010, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Damn Brit

That is a good suggestion, it works for large format. I know when I have used LV in low light conditions it has been much better than the VF, covering the LCD with a dark cloth should create the same benefit.

The only problem is, that a good dark cloth takes up more space in the bag, than the whole K20 body...

Ben

Damn Brit · 01-26-2010, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

The only problem is, that a good dark cloth takes up more space in the bag, than the whole K20 body...

Ben

He only needs to shield the LCD from the sun. I've done it successfully with a small cardboard box when viewing images on the LCD in bright sunlight.

All you need is a baseball cap and a black handkerchief. You can keep the handkerchief under your cap if there isn't room in your bag.

José Ramos · 01-26-2010, 04:34 PM

My problem is not using live view in sunny conditions, as I usually shoot during the "golden hour", on dawn or sunset. The problem is not being able to view a usable image on the live view, when everything's almost black on the viewfinder, mostly when I'm using a 10 stop ND filter.

Yes, the K20d focuses quicker, might have better high ISO performance and allows for AF individual adjustment for each lens, but considering I would only need this 5-10% of the time, I don't think it will make it worthwhile to keep the K20d. Besides that, it's not like the K10d is totally unusable outside landscapes...

kenyee · 01-26-2010, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Ben_Edict

Two major advantages are the better high ISO performance of the K20 and the slightly faster AF

Neither of these are useful to a landscape photog where ISO100 is the norm and ISO50 is wished for

The K10D also has less noise when pixel peeped at ISO100 and also has less chroma noise in shadows than the K20D, so I'd agree w/ the OP and say the K20D is not a useful upgrade if landscapes are the primary purpose...

Damn Brit · 01-26-2010, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by José Ramos

My problem is not using live view in sunny conditions, as I usually shoot during the "golden hour", on dawn or sunset. The problem is not being able to view a usable image on the live view, when everything's almost black on the viewfinder, mostly when I'm using a 10 stop ND filter.

Yes, the K20d focuses quicker, might have better high ISO performance and allows for AF individual adjustment for each lens, but considering I would only need this 5-10% of the time, I don't think it will make it worthwhile to keep the K20d. Besides that, it's not like the K10d is totally unusable outside landscapes...

Sorry, misunderstood you.

I think this is a case of be careful who you listen to, sorry.

systemA · 01-26-2010, 04:50 PM

I agree. Keep shooting with your k10d, and save the money!

José Ramos · 01-26-2010, 04:59 PM

I was hoping someone would come with a revelation, and tell me how amazing and much superior the k20d is for me, and how I should keep it...

01-26-2010, 11:55 AM	#1
José Ramos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 37	K20d - doubts about live view and long shutter noise reduction... Hi there. Before I decide to sell my K20d I'll ask here the same question I posted on dpreview, as this forum seems to have a bigger and more knowledgeable attendance. I had a K10d and I bought a K20d mainly for the live view feature, to be able to properly compose with a 4stop or 10 stop ND filter, without having to unscrew the filters to compose. As you know, the viewfinder gets almost black with a 10 stop filter screwed on, and many people told me I'd be able to compose through the live view. Today I tried my K20d for the first time in the field, and I noticed that the live view isn't helping me at all. I can see a brighter image in the viewfinder, even when I increase ISO to 3200 and opening the aperture. As such, do you have any idea how do I amplify the live view image, making the image clearer with the 10 stop filter on? I was also extremely surprised when I noticed that the K20d doesn't have an option to turn off the long shutter noise reduction... Isn't there any firmware hack that would allow me to turn it off? Thanks José Ramos

01-26-2010, 04:16 PM	#10
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by Ben_Edict The only problem is, that a good dark cloth takes up more space in the bag, than the whole K20 body... Ben He only needs to shield the LCD from the sun. I've done it successfully with a small cardboard box when viewing images on the LCD in bright sunlight. All you need is a baseball cap and a black handkerchief. You can keep the handkerchief under your cap if there isn't room in your bag. Last edited by Damn Brit; 01-26-2010 at 04:23 PM.

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01-26-2010, 11:57 AM	#2
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	lol who told you that live view would somehow negate the light loss of a 10 stop ND filter?

01-26-2010, 12:03 PM	#3
José Ramos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 37 Original Poster	Originally posted by Gooshin lol who told you that live view would somehow negate the light loss of a 10 stop ND filter? There you have it... Live-view mode - good for landscape photography? [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review And I was and I always am on a tight budget...

01-26-2010, 01:53 PM	#4
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	The thread in DPrev is a mix-up of the LievView capabilities of different cameras. The K20 LiveView is pretty limited. I have never used LV with a dense filter, but I do not think, that it is useful with a ND400 filter as one poster claimed - not during daylight or without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth. Noise Reduction above 30s expsoures is unfortunately a feature, that is not switcheable and there are (to my knowledge) no Firmware hacks, that adress this (known) issue. I personally try to limit my expsoures to 30s, to avoid the forced darkframe. Ben P.S:: Though the LV of the K20 may be a bit disappointing, the real viewfinder is great for an APS-C sized camera and an angle finder might give your back some relief. Also you could add a Zigview to the viewfinder, which can also be used via a video extension cable remotely.

01-26-2010, 01:58 PM	#5
José Ramos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 37 Original Poster	Originally posted by Ben_Edict The thread in DPrev is a mix-up of the LievView capabilities of different cameras. The K20 LiveView is pretty limited. I have never used LV with a dense filter, but I do not think, that it is useful with a ND400 filter as one poster claimed - not during daylight or without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth. Noise Reduction above 30s expsoures is unfortunately a feature, that is not switcheable and there are (to my knowledge) no Firmware hacks, that adress this (known) issue. I personally try to limit my expsoures to 30s, to avoid the forced darkframe. Ben P.S:: Though the LV of the K20 may be a bit disappointing, the real viewfinder is great for an APS-C sized camera and an angle finder might give your back some relief. Also you could add a Zigview to the viewfinder, which can also be used via a video extension cable remotely. Well... I already have a Pentax K10d, with the same great viewfinder. Considering that 90% of the photography I make is landscape photography, with lots long exposures using ND filters, does it make any sense to stick with the K20d. I have 4 extra megapixels, but apart from that there isn't a single advantage, and a HUGE drawback with the noise reduction feature... What do you think?

01-26-2010, 02:00 PM	#6
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	then the K10D is the better tool for you at the moment.

01-26-2010, 02:05 PM	#7
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by Ben_Edict without sticking the K20 screen and your head under a dark cloth. That is a good suggestion, it works for large format. I know when I have used LV in low light conditions it has been much better than the VF, covering the LCD with a dark cloth should create the same benefit.

01-26-2010, 04:12 PM	#8
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by José Ramos Well... I already have a Pentax K10d, with the same great viewfinder. Considering that 90% of the photography I make is landscape photography, with lots long exposures using ND filters, does it make any sense to stick with the K20d. I have 4 extra megapixels, but apart from that there isn't a single advantage, and a HUGE drawback with the noise reduction feature... What do you think? If you search in the forum for advantages of the K20 over the K10 you'll find a few more issues, which make an upgrade worthwhile. I have kept my K10 as a second body, but mainly use the K20. Two major advantages are the better high ISO performance of the K20 and the slightly faster AF – and the possibility to store AF correction factors for your AF lenses, if the AF is off (front or back focusing). THere are some more differences, but in between the improvements, the NR is an annoying oversight by the Pentax engineers. It should have been easy to make that switcheable. If that is really important for you, stick with the K10. Also, the K-x might be considered a better upgrade option, due to its seemingly excellent high ISO performance and further improved AF (even the K-m/K2000 has a noticeably better AF, than the K20). Ben

01-26-2010, 04:13 PM	#9
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Originally posted by Damn Brit That is a good suggestion, it works for large format. I know when I have used LV in low light conditions it has been much better than the VF, covering the LCD with a dark cloth should create the same benefit. The only problem is, that a good dark cloth takes up more space in the bag, than the whole K20 body... Ben

01-26-2010, 04:34 PM	#11
José Ramos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 37 Original Poster	My problem is not using live view in sunny conditions, as I usually shoot during the "golden hour", on dawn or sunset. The problem is not being able to view a usable image on the live view, when everything's almost black on the viewfinder, mostly when I'm using a 10 stop ND filter. Yes, the K20d focuses quicker, might have better high ISO performance and allows for AF individual adjustment for each lens, but considering I would only need this 5-10% of the time, I don't think it will make it worthwhile to keep the K20d. Besides that, it's not like the K10d is totally unusable outside landscapes...

01-26-2010, 04:43 PM	#12
kenyee Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Boston, PRofMA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,026	Originally posted by Ben_Edict Two major advantages are the better high ISO performance of the K20 and the slightly faster AF Neither of these are useful to a landscape photog where ISO100 is the norm and ISO50 is wished for The K10D also has less noise when pixel peeped at ISO100 and also has less chroma noise in shadows than the K20D, so I'd agree w/ the OP and say the K20D is not a useful upgrade if landscapes are the primary purpose...

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01-26-2010, 04:49 PM	#13
Damn Brit Guest	Originally posted by José Ramos My problem is not using live view in sunny conditions, as I usually shoot during the "golden hour", on dawn or sunset. The problem is not being able to view a usable image on the live view, when everything's almost black on the viewfinder, mostly when I'm using a 10 stop ND filter. Yes, the K20d focuses quicker, might have better high ISO performance and allows for AF individual adjustment for each lens, but considering I would only need this 5-10% of the time, I don't think it will make it worthwhile to keep the K20d. Besides that, it's not like the K10d is totally unusable outside landscapes... Sorry, misunderstood you. I think this is a case of be careful who you listen to, sorry.

01-26-2010, 04:50 PM	#14
systemA Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: New York, NY Posts: 385	I agree. Keep shooting with your k10d, and save the money!

01-26-2010, 04:59 PM	#15
José Ramos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portugal Posts: 37 Original Poster	I was hoping someone would come with a revelation, and tell me how amazing and much superior the k20d is for me, and how I should keep it...