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01-28-2010, 09:58 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan J. Eberle Quote
... what a sketchy example of shadow noise the glassware image above exhibits? Not a very ringing endorsement of the K7, at least not to me. Which is disappointing ....
It's taken with K200D. As mentioned.

01-28-2010, 10:11 AM   #17
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Hi Ivan, I understood the above image was from a K200D... while I have never used a K7 but I dont have noise nearly that bad at ISO400 on the K20D.
01-28-2010, 11:05 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan J. Eberle Quote
... what a sketchy example of shadow noise the glassware image above exhibits? Not a very ringing endorsement of the K7, at least not to me. Which is disappointing as I've been seriously considering one for the small size and low price, to go with several excellent old Pentax primes I've got laying round gathering dust. I'd have to reconsider if the camera is not capable of better results at ISO 400.
The reason I migrated to being dual-platform by adding Nikon to the mix 5 years ago was lens availability. Sure, Pentax made (probably still makes) some legendary lenses. But the epic exotics are a LOT less available on short notice than Nikon's best offerings. Even Nikon's finest glass is relatively ubiquitous and doesn't get bid up into the stratosphere. My suggestion would be that if you ever need to find a pro lens in a hurry, go with the Nikon. You'll also be able to find them in rental departments if you want to try before buying.
I have the first-gen D300 and it's still impressive, ISO 1600 is quite usable. I understand that 300s gains another stop. This is their DX flagship, and as such it's a system camera with a number of accessories that put it an a whole 'nuther niche than anything Pentax presently offers (for instance, the WiFi transmitter and Camera Control Pro enables remote Live View with most all camera controls accessible from up a laptop networked wirelessly, for on-location remotes)
When shouting in RAW, you probably couldn't tell what pictures come from a K-7 and which ones are from a D300. The Pentax JPEG engine is not too hot when it comes to noise, but shout RAW and you won't be able to tell them apart.
01-28-2010, 11:31 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ivan J. Eberle Quote
... what a sketchy example of shadow noise the glassware image above exhibits? Not a very ringing endorsement of the K7, at least not to me. Which is disappointing as I've been seriously considering one for the small size and low price, to go with several excellent old Pentax primes I've got laying round gathering dust. I'd have to reconsider if the camera is not capable of better results at ISO 400.
The reason I migrated to being dual-platform by adding Nikon to the mix 5 years ago was lens availability. Sure, Pentax made (probably still makes) some legendary lenses. But the epic exotics are a LOT less available on short notice than Nikon's best offerings. Even Nikon's finest glass is relatively ubiquitous and doesn't get bid up into the stratosphere. My suggestion would be that if you ever need to find a pro lens in a hurry, go with the Nikon. You'll also be able to find them in rental departments if you want to try before buying.
I have the first-gen D300 and it's still impressive, ISO 1600 is quite usable. I understand that 300s gains another stop. This is their DX flagship, and as such it's a system camera with a number of accessories that put it an a whole 'nuther niche than anything Pentax presently offers (for instance, the WiFi transmitter and Camera Control Pro enables remote Live View with most all camera controls accessible from up a laptop networked wirelessly, for on-location remotes)
I believe that is shot by a K200D at ISO1600 used with a cheap FA100-300 which is not an excellent top of the line lens. also consider the camera NR application level. there are threads that had been discussing or showing real world images taken by the K-7, I suggest that you browse them before making some speculations.

also, as already mentioned, the D300 and K-7 don't show a real difference when you shoot RAW.

01-28-2010, 12:22 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I believe that is shot by a K200D at ISO1600 used with a cheap FA100-300 which is not an excellent top of the line lens. also consider the camera NR application level. there are threads that had been discussing or showing real world images taken by the K-7, I suggest that you browse them before making some speculations.

also, as already mentioned, the D300 and K-7 don't show a real difference when you shoot RAW.
Yes my bad, EXİF from Photome says 1600 ISO, high or low there is no noise reduction at all, it was night time and only light source was considerably dim yellow lights from chandelier. Also picture is directly jpeg from the camera except resizing. Under these conditions it's a cheap lens or not it's an great picture to my eyes, incredibly true bright colors. I can send original picture if someone PM me with his email address.

PhotoMe shows:

Camera: PENTAX K200D
Lens: smc PENTAX-FA 100-300mm F4.7-5.8
Software: K200D Ver 1.00
Dimension: 3872 x 2592*px*(10 MP, 3:2)
Focal length: 170*mm*(equiv. 255*mm)
Aperture: F5.6
Exposure time: 1/13"
ISO speed rating: 1600/33ー
Program: Aperture Priority
Metering Mode: Center-weighted average
White Balance: User-Selected
Focus Mode: AF-S
Image Stabilizer: stabilized
Noise Reduction: Off
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
01-28-2010, 12:52 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Yes my bad, EXİF from Photome says 1600 ISO, high or low there is no noise reduction at all, it was night time and only light source was considerably dim yellow lights from chandelier. Also picture is directly jpeg from the camera except resizing. Under these conditions it's a cheap lens or not it's an great picture to my eyes, incredibly true bright colors. I can send original picture if someone PM me with his email address.

PhotoMe shows:

Camera: PENTAX K200D
Lens: smc PENTAX-FA 100-300mm F4.7-5.8
Software: K200D Ver 1.00
Dimension: 3872 x 2592*px*(10 MP, 3:2)
Focal length: 170*mm*(equiv. 255*mm)
Aperture: F5.6
Exposure time: 1/13"
ISO speed rating: 1600/33ー
Program: Aperture Priority
Metering Mode: Center-weighted average
White Balance: User-Selected
Focus Mode: AF-S
Image Stabilizer: stabilized
Noise Reduction: Off
Flash: Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode
thanks for clarifying that out. atleast the complaint about noises is answered (due to absence of NR application). it is still a very good result considering it is has no NR applied. though I think you would had done much better if you used a better lens.
01-28-2010, 01:02 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
thanks for clarifying that out. atleast the complaint about noises is answered (due to absence of NR application). it is still a very good result considering it is has no NR applied. though I think you would had done much better if you used a better lens.
Under these conditions the result is perfect to me, I am in love with these colors, actually better than the scene itself. if you know a lens I can get results beyond my imagination I'd like to hear it (except 77mm ltd, I know that). You remember the frog picture taken with 43 ltd in a competition? I believe that picture looks better than the real life, thats Pentax.
01-28-2010, 03:38 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbaytan Quote
Under these conditions the result is perfect to me, I am in love with these colors, actually better than the scene itself. if you know a lens I can get results beyond my imagination I'd like to hear it (except 77mm ltd, I know that). You remember the frog picture taken with 43 ltd in a competition? I believe that picture looks better than the real life, thats Pentax.
I think you already know some of those lenses.

01-28-2010, 08:25 PM   #24
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If you hate weight, then the clear winner will be the K7
01-29-2010, 11:09 AM   #25
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Woops! I realized too late that I was in the wrong thread after submitting. Sorry. I cannot remember the exact lenses my buddy has but they are all primes dating back to Spotmatic days. I probably over stated the importance of his collection to me anyway. Most important to me are the size, handling and ruggedness of the camera, as well as its ability to produce good images. I have not been able to handle a K7 since no shop in Atlanta sells Pentax anymore, which is a shame. I was talking to the manager at Wolf Camera's main store yesterday and asked,"why not?" He said Pentax doesn't sell in the south. Said they sell like hot cakes in the NE and Colorado westward. Wolf (they've go through some real changes lately) does not even sell Canon anymore, just Nikon, Oly and Sony. Anyway, back to the main subject- a picture can say it all. The photo of the K7, 300s and 7d together tells me what I pretty much need to know. Based on it the K7 wins hands down. Looking to get a DA 16-50 with it and a 50-135 later. Any thoughts on that? Thanks to all.
01-29-2010, 11:47 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by zenspector Quote
Woops! I realized too late that I was in the wrong thread after submitting. Sorry. I cannot remember the exact lenses my buddy has but they are all primes dating back to Spotmatic days. I probably over stated the importance of his collection to me anyway. Most important to me are the size, handling and ruggedness of the camera, as well as its ability to produce good images. I have not been able to handle a K7 since no shop in Atlanta sells Pentax anymore, which is a shame. I was talking to the manager at Wolf Camera's main store yesterday and asked,"why not?" He said Pentax doesn't sell in the south. Said they sell like hot cakes in the NE and Colorado westward. Wolf (they've go through some real changes lately) does not even sell Canon anymore, just Nikon, Oly and Sony. Anyway, back to the main subject- a picture can say it all. The photo of the K7, 300s and 7d together tells me what I pretty much need to know. Based on it the K7 wins hands down. Looking to get a DA 16-50 with it and a 50-135 later. Any thoughts on that? Thanks to all.
if you are going to look for a fast zoom lens combo, the Tamron 17-50/2.8 and Tamron 70-200/2.8 would be the best combo. I know that these are non-Pentax lenses, but they are of great value, cheaper and excellent performers. you'll have the 2 Tamron lens combo for the price of 1 DA* zoom.

I just don't have the confidence of recommending you the DA* zooms at this moment and avoid you from getting into future setbacks with them.

btw, if you don't mind Pentax primes, you might want to get some yourselves. there is a wide selection of old and cheap manual focus Pentax legacy lenses that can produce the stellar results. or some old autofocus FA legacy lenses as well. check the lens review section to look specifically for those highly regarded lenses.

the modern FA LTDs and DA LTDs are of great value as well. the pancakes as what you call them are very small, travel friendly and ultra-portable which makes them very attractive or sought at. size alone is not the only strong point of these lenses, but image quality to it's finest as well.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 01-29-2010 at 12:00 PM.
01-29-2010, 12:33 PM   #27
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My concern with the Tamron are their ruggedness and weather &dust protection. Otherwise I would consider them. I understand the 17-50/2.8 is an outstanding lens. What is your reason for not recommending the DA* lenses?

I am very interested in Pentax primes. I feel they are some of the best glass around, and I plan on adding some. I learned with the Leica that primes really help me to be more creative. Before, I had gone more to using zooms with my Nikon gear. This was a lesson well learned and not forgotten. The main reasons for quality zooms in my kit will be for travel and not having to change lenses so often, especially in inclement weather.

Last edited by zenspector; 01-29-2010 at 12:43 PM.
01-29-2010, 02:20 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by zenspector Quote
My concern with the Tamron are their ruggedness and weather &dust protection. Otherwise I would consider them. I understand the 17-50/2.8 is an outstanding lens. What is your reason for not recommending the DA* lenses?

I am very interested in Pentax primes. I feel they are some of the best glass around, and I plan on adding some. I learned with the Leica that primes really help me to be more creative. Before, I had gone more to using zooms with my Nikon gear. This was a lesson well learned and not forgotten. The main reasons for quality zooms in my kit will be for travel and not having to change lenses so often, especially in inclement weather.
I don't mean to scare you away from purchasing the DA* zooms, but having experienced setbacks with those lenses along with other people, have raised concerns as to the reliability of the SDM zooms. the risk of a failing silent autofocus system is much more important to consider as compared to weather-sealing. I dunno how often you do travel or shoot under harsh conditions, but if you could live without WR lenses and just contend of protecting your non-WR lenses with other materials, then it should be fine. I already did shoot with a few of my non-WR lenses under the weather, most notably the DA12-24/4 and I was careful enough to avoid moisture to build up and use a screw-on hood and lens filter for front element protection against rain and dust. as well as bring along a piece of cloth or any material to cover it from rain, snow, or dust.
01-29-2010, 02:23 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by zenspector Quote
My concern with the Tamron are their ruggedness and weather &dust protection. Otherwise I would consider them. I understand the 17-50/2.8 is an outstanding lens. What is your reason for not recommending the DA* lenses?

I am very interested in Pentax primes. I feel they are some of the best glass around, and I plan on adding some. I learned with the Leica that primes really help me to be more creative. Before, I had gone more to using zooms with my Nikon gear. This was a lesson well learned and not forgotten. The main reasons for quality zooms in my kit will be for travel and not having to change lenses so often, especially in inclement weather.
As a D300s user, Id recommend the K7 if size does matters for you... however, Pentax is your enemy if you're looking for the quality zooms... Pentax DA* lenses are the only lenses in the lineup that are weather sealed, and unfortunately these are the same lenses that are cursed with SDM failures... Nikon, on the other hand, has plenty of quality zooms... just keep your wallet ready...

IQ-wise you won't be in a lose either way... Though personally I prefer Nikon's output...
01-29-2010, 03:00 PM   #30
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Hey Zenspector, I have to make the choice between a K-7, D300S, and 7D as well.

I mostly shoot street stuff, so I want small, tough, quiet, and pretty fast operating, plus good controls. I personally think the Pentax K-7 (and lens range) suits what I need.

I had a play with the 7D, great camera but I ruled it out for being a beast, and somewhat strange handling - to me anyway. I was always more interested in the Nikons due to the glass range. I had a play with a D300S the other day.

As expected, the D300S has great AF (with Nikkor 24-70 f/2.8), good controls. The camera, as pointed out before, is also pretty big. A big drawback for me was the tremendously loud shutter. I work for guys who use Nikon gear, so I was keen to go into that range, but D300S just isn't what I need for most of what I shoot.

I shoot RAW, and I'm told neither the D300S or K-7 are great jpeg shooters. K-7 is noisy to a degree unless you shoot RAW (although detail retention is good), and I was told the D300S is prone to over-exposure and to shooting with a cold white balance.

The K-7 (which I have tried out but haven't got yet), suits me down to the ground. Very small, quiet, functional. Great lens options (if you don't need the gaps in the Pentax's line up). The trade off compared to the D300S is minimal, you are losing out slightly in frame rates, and perhaps AF speed. I only really shoot AF-S, which is meant to be pretty similar, whereas the K-7 is meant to lag a bit in AF-C.

It's a shame you can't try the K-7 body out. It is much, much smaller than the D300S. And then you have the pancake limiteds range, which are amazingly small. I can't wait to shoot some street with K-7 and Pentax 21 and 40mm limiteds.
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