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01-30-2010, 09:35 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
[Sigh] Go back to post #11 and repeat. After that go back to post#4 and answer my question. Which was the k-x and which was the D5000? What is the point of me posting replies to you if you are not going to look at them?
i think we are not moving anywhere, you just as adamant as me on not listening to what i am saying. To put it shortly these are my points:

1. Noise is more problem in darker areas than brighter areas. So picked a darker area portion for comparison, which clearly does not put d700 on 2stops better light.

2. when you say d700 is two stops better, i shall be able to see it on full image and not on the parts of it. In other words if i pick any part of any image that advantage shall not be lost.
you can show me some parts where d700 might be better but it is not for complete image.

3. you were saying about noise and details, the crop i posted noise of d700 was worse plus i do not see much more detail as you said.

QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Jees...the k-x is a great camera. What is the point of continuing to compare it to other cameras? Just be happy with it, and stop worrying about how it compares to Canon and Nikon.
d700 is also nice camera but it is not what you were making out to be. I am not worrying , only thing is i do not agree with your assessment.

01-30-2010, 09:57 PM   #17
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Well people are going to be thrilled that they don't need to spend $2,400 on a D700 any more! The k-x is up to the task for only $549! If you think the D700 and the k-x have equivalent IQ; whatever. I'm not going to try and burst your bubble any more.


BTW you couldn't tell the difference between the D5000 and the k-x could you? I asked twice, but you ignored it both times.
01-30-2010, 10:29 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
No doubt the k-x has a good sensor, but let's not get carried away comparing an entry level DSLR, to pro/am cameras. The pictures you posted are a tiny little sliver from a 100% crop at DPR. The "hair" of a stamp picture is not a really good way of quantifying the amount of detail left. Go to Imaging Resources and look at results from the comparometer. In particular, look at the parts of the picture that includes the "proportional scale" so you can see the remaining resolution and detail. The k-x is at least 2 stops behind the D700 and the 5dMkII.

Still, the k-x is excellent for an entry level camera, but is it really any better than the direct competition? Which is the k-x below, and which is the entry-level Nikon D5000? Both are 100% crop at ISO 6400:


Edit: smc, regarding your question about ISO100, this thread was related to that question: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/86265-k-x-blows-45...omparisin.html
I'll give you my opinion PCF, I like the image on the right.
01-30-2010, 11:04 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote

BTW you couldn't tell the difference between the D5000 and the k-x could you? I asked twice, but you ignored it both times.

why would i do so??? The discussion was about d700 being two stops better. Was it not???

01-30-2010, 11:13 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raybo Quote
I'll give you my opinion PCF, I like the image on the right.
Thank you Raybo for being the only one brave enough to take a guess.

You chose the Nikon D5000.


Disclaimer: I am not against the k-x. I like the k-x, and I think it is a fantastic entry-level camera for Pentax. If I bought one, I think it would be cool to buy an orange one, and I would reserve it for Limited pancake lenses. What I am against is "fanboyism" that distorts our minds into thinking an entry-level camera is almost as good in IQ as a camera costing 5 times more.

Last edited by PentaxPoke; 01-30-2010 at 11:24 PM.
01-30-2010, 11:40 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
Thank you Raybo for being the only one brave enough to take a guess.

You chose the Nikon D5000.


Disclaimer: I am not against the k-x. I like the k-x, and I think it is a fantastic entry-level camera for Pentax. If I bought one, I think it would be cool to buy an orange one, and I would reserve it for Limited pancake lenses. What I am against is "fanboyism" that distorts our minds into thinking an entry-level camera is almost as good in IQ as a camera costing 5 times more.
For some reason I transposed my threads PP (I was thinking pcarfan for some reason).
Well it still doesn't make any kind of difference PP, I still like the image on the right and that's a fact!

Ray
01-31-2010, 04:20 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote


BTW you couldn't tell the difference between the D5000 and the k-x could you? I asked twice, but you ignored it both times.
They have the same sensor; any difference is in the jpeg processing (and possibly different AA filters). What's the point of asking?

I don't think the K-x is equal to the D700. But I think it might be a tad closer than you think (funny how in technical arguments truth often lies between the two opposing sides rather than with either one...).
01-31-2010, 05:22 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
That I am against is "fanboyism" that distorts our minds into thinking an entry-level camera is almost as good in IQ as a camera costing 5 times more.
D3s and D700 take the same pictures, but D3s is twice as expensive. There are several issues with the k-x comparison: the effect of diminishing returns and the fact that one camera is missing a ton of features.

01-31-2010, 04:25 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by asdf Quote
D3s and D700 take the same pictures, but D3s is twice as expensive. There are several issues with the k-x comparison: the effect of diminishing returns and the fact that one camera is missing a ton of features.
You mean D3 and D700. The D3s has an even further improved sensor that serves to even further up the ante.
01-31-2010, 05:01 PM   #25
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ISO noise is one thing

dynamic range is another

go shoot some empty night streets with a KX then compare it to a D700

all these noise tests are done in pretty well lit environments.
01-31-2010, 05:40 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
ISO noise is one thing

dynamic range is another

go shoot some empty night streets with a KX then compare it to a D700

all these noise tests are done in pretty well lit environments.
Good point. This is the same reason why I feel the K-x to have about 2 stop's advantage over the K20D/K-7, which has earned me the ire of several other members in threads where comparison images clearly showed the K-x to have a little less than a stop of advantage-- at base exposure, no raising of the shadows. When detail needs to be extracted from the shadows at ISO 400 and above-- which is something I often take advantage of with the K-x-- the K20D shadows turn to sandpaper. Real-world results vs. controlled tests, never quite the same. The K-x's dynamic range (and it relation to shadow noise) is a step ahead of the previous APS-C crop (including the Samsung 14.6 sensors, much as I love them), just as FF sensors like that in the D700 is a step above the K-x. It's just that their used to be a bigger gap, which the K-x (and the Nikons with the same sensor) have stepped up into.
01-31-2010, 06:26 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by asdf Quote

QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke:
That I am against is "fanboyism" that distorts our minds into thinking an entry-level camera is almost as good in IQ as a camera costing 5 times more.
D3s and D700 take the same pictures, but D3s is twice as expensive. There are several issues with the k-x comparison: the effect of diminishing returns and the fact that one camera is missing a ton of features.
he is just putting words in others mouth. No-one in this thread has said that kx's IQ is equal to d700.
01-31-2010, 07:20 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
ISO noise is one thing

dynamic range is another

go shoot some empty night streets with a KX then compare it to a D700

all these noise tests are done in pretty well lit environments.
What, are you implying there's an actual REASON people spend $2k+ on say a D700 or 5DII over a K-x?

I really don't see the point of these threads, to be honest. I can't count the number of times somebody here posts a "comparison" of whichever Pentax body against whichever Canon or Nikon body in order to "prove" that it's just as good or even better in some instance. I hang out on a couple of brand C boards and don't really see any posts from the crop sensor guys bashing FF or even trying to point out how their brand is better than the other brand blah blah... why is it so prevalent here? Sometimes it feels like I'm on DPreview forums. If you like how your camera performs, by all means, share it, and share some pictures taken with it (rather than test shots) -- why worry so much about how it compares to a D700 or D3X or 1DIII or whatever?
01-31-2010, 10:37 PM   #29
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As Er1k mentioned, the D5000 and the K-x have the same sensor. So it makes sense that their performance (seen in post 4 above) is similar.

Here is some interesting information from DXO which tests the sensors performance directly:

Compare cameras link

We'll have to use the D5000 for the k-x since the k-x hasn't been tested yet, but one would expect it to be pretty close.

In overall DXOmark performance the D5000 (and by association the k-x) is not bad compared to the D700. 80.5 vs 72. (Only 10% "worse") Also of interest is that they found the D5000 to have slightly better dynamic range. The only place where the D700 blows away the D5000 is in the "Low-Light ISO". 2303 vs 868. A simple way to understand that score is that the D700 will have the same signal to noise ratio at an ISO of 2303, as the D5000 has at 868. A bit over a stop. The difference is larger at higher ISO's and approaches 2 stops at ISO 12,800 on the D700 (seen in one of the tabs).

So as I agreed, the k-x/D5000 sensor is great. It is no D700, but it is outstanding in all areas considering it is in entry-level cameras. What is kind of sad is how the D5000 blows away the flagship of the Pentax line in dynamic range and ISO even though they were launched within a month of each other. Now I understand the posts I have been seeing here: "Should I buy a k-x or a k-7?"
Attached Images
 

Last edited by PentaxPoke; 01-31-2010 at 10:44 PM.
02-02-2010, 02:41 AM   #30
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QuoteQuote:
Pentax Poke: What is kind of sad is how the D5000 blows away the flagship of the Pentax line in dynamic range and ISO even though they were launched within a month of each other. Now I understand the posts I have been seeing here: "Should I buy a k-x or a k-7?"
An interesting point!
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