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02-06-2010, 06:52 PM   #1
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K7 vs. Kx vs. K20D vs. K10D etc .. what's going on? Bashing revisited.

So there we have this now:

The K7 IQ not great for indoor photography [read on a thread here].
The K20D IQ is better than the K7 at high ISO ... that's not new "news", is it? [also on several threads here]
The K20D is better than the K10D, in a lot of ways ... what's new here too? [lots of threads and posts on that subject]
Flash photography with the K20D is better than the K7 .... now what? [recently read on a thread here as well] ...

and the list goes on and on, making comparisons between apples and oranges and blueberries.

When people are happy with the results they obtain with any given camera/lens/flash combination, it doesn't "make the news". Rather, they will proudly post their pics and show what can be done with the equipment they own, then that's it ... no more talk about it. We expect this to be totally normal, so no big deal, right?

When someone has difficulties with of the aforementioned combination(s) of camera gear and lens/flash, well, it goes all over the forum.

It is true that reporting problems with any photographic equipment will help those in similar situations. If the problem involves a great number of users, we all want to know what's going on, maybe it is a defective item.

But then, I suspect that a lot of such complaints are simply due to a lack of basic photographic knowledge, i.e.: technique. I myself am guilty of complaining about this or that nor working properly only to realize later, with the help of some folks here, that my technique(s) was (were), to say the least, rather poor.

My point is: ask for help if you find that you are not getting the results you expect before deciding to bash such and such piece of equipment, be it a camera, a lens, a flash unit, or any combination of either.

Most of the time, the answers will come and you'll be able to solve the problem(s).
Most of the time, you will be able to decide, after suggestions and help in this forum, if it is the equipment or yourself which is at fault.
If it comes down to faulty gear, well, at least you will have tried everything to remedy the cause before jumping into hurried conclusions. The equipment is faulty: return it or just have it repaired, sell it for parts ... whatever.

I am getting bored of those repeated bashing episodes of ANY camera/lens/flash/etc... from people who haven't even considered that they might be the problem, not the equipment.

Cheers,

Fed-up-JP


Last edited by jpzk; 02-06-2010 at 06:58 PM.
02-06-2010, 07:36 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
So there we have this now:

The K7 IQ not great for indoor photography [read on a thread here].
The K20D IQ is better than the K7 at high ISO ... that's not new "news", is it? [also on several threads here]
The K20D is better than the K10D, in a lot of ways ... what's new here too? [lots of threads and posts on that subject]
And the K10d is better than the K20d in other ways. Specifically, the ability to turn off the noise reduction (dark frame subtraction) at long exposures.

QuoteQuote:
Flash photography with the K20D is better than the K7 .... now what? [recently read on a thread here as well] ...

and the list goes on and on, making comparisons between apples and oranges and blueberries.

When people are happy with the results they obtain with any given camera/lens/flash combination, it doesn't "make the news". Rather, they will proudly post their pics and show what can be done with the equipment they own, then that's it ... no more talk about it. We expect this to be totally normal, so no big deal, right?
Pretty Rude if you ask me. Of course, there are those in the club who can do no wrong and a picture of a pile of dog excrement will get rave reviews by the followers.

QuoteQuote:
When someone has difficulties with of the aforementioned combination(s) of camera gear and lens/flash, well, it goes all over the forum.

It is true that reporting problems with any photographic equipment will help those in similar situations. If the problem involves a great number of users, we all want to know what's going on, maybe it is a defective item.

But then, I suspect that a lot of such complaints are simply due to a lack of basic photographic knowledge, i.e.: technique. I myself am guilty of complaining about this or that nor working properly only to realize later, with the help of some folks here, that my technique(s) was (were), to say the least, rather poor.

My point is: ask for help if you find that you are not getting the results you expect before deciding to bash such and such piece of equipment, be it a camera, a lens, a flash unit, or any combination of either.

Most of the time, the answers will come and you'll be able to solve the problem(s).
Most of the time, you will be able to decide, after suggestions and help in this forum, if it is the equipment or yourself which is at fault.
If it comes down to faulty gear, well, at least you will have tried everything to remedy the cause before jumping into hurried conclusions. The equipment is faulty: return it or just have it repaired, sell it for parts ... whatever.

I am getting bored of those repeated bashing episodes of ANY camera/lens/flash/etc... from people who haven't even considered that they might be the problem, not the equipment.

Cheers,

Fed-up-JP
Bottom line I think, is that people just have to have something to bitch about. Blame the equipment instead of studying what They may be doing wrong is the easy thing to do.
02-06-2010, 07:40 PM   #3
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The amusing thing to me is that currently, in the Pentax community, the K20 is the most accoladed camera. The Kx gets some high iso props, but in general, the K20 rules. However, when it came out, it was widely bashed as not being enough of a step above the K10. Now, it is generally accepted as being a significant improvement in several ways.

I do think that some people find it necessary to bash equipment to explain why they are not going to "move up." If you are completely satisfied with a K100, or a K10, or a K20, there is no reason to change cameras, but on the other hand, there is no reason to bash the newer cameras either.
02-07-2010, 01:38 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
I am getting bored of those repeated bashing episodes of ANY camera/lens/flash/etc... from people who haven't even considered that they might be the problem, not the equipment.
Everyone can take a bad shot and say "my camera sucks", but it takes more skill to take a great shot so you can say "look what my camera can do".

02-07-2010, 01:47 AM   #5
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jpzk, that's right to the point, in most of the cases! Even more, it's funny to see people bashing equipment that they even didn't use. Maybe we could make a contest here who can make better framed prints of Imagining Resources samples ...
02-07-2010, 01:48 AM   #6
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02-07-2010, 03:29 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
Of course, there are those in the club who can do no wrong and a picture of a pile of dog excrement will get rave reviews by the followers.
Ah, you have noticed that too have you .. although I think that happens on most forums.

Personally I have been ready to upgrade my K10D for months now but after constantly reading this forum I am still no closer to choosing a replacement.
02-07-2010, 03:42 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike.P® Quote
Ah, you have noticed that too have you .. although I think that happens on most forums.
Noticed it a long time ago. Not calling this forum out specifically, it just happens to be this one where I made the statement. Really a shame it's that way. I've seen some really nice work from the 'outsiders' that goes largely ignored (not just in photography forums either).

QuoteQuote:

Personally I have been ready to upgrade my K10D for months now but after constantly reading this forum I am still no closer to choosing a replacement.
Ah, yes.. The true danger of reading too many opinions. Yours of course is the only one that will matter. Hope you are able to put some upgrade criteria together and make a decision (one way or the other). While I believe user reviews are a good tool to use, I grow weary of sifting out comments (read, Noise) from people who have never touched the equipment they are commenting on. Rather echoing what they read somewhere else. That is, when I'm looking to make a purchase.

If it helps you any, I bought the K20d for the ability to adjust the AF on multiple lenses without having to screw around with the Firmware. I actually bought the K7 for it's HD video capability. Both features are marginally useful to me but worth having when I want them. In other words, the video is nice to have for catching candid action in something unusual happening. There have been a few situations where I am (now) glad I had Some sort of video capability and wanted it again.

02-07-2010, 03:44 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The amusing thing to me is that currently, in the Pentax community, the K20 is the most accoladed camera. The Kx gets some high iso props, but in general, the K20 rules. However, when it came out, it was widely bashed as not being enough of a step above the K10. Now, it is generally accepted as being a significant improvement in several ways.
There is a lot of truth to what is said in this thread. It is also true of lenses, but that is another soapbox. We spend a lot of time talking each other into upgraded zooms that are only marginally better, then bash them when they don't change our lives. It's just being human.

By the way, IMO the pattern of satisfaction has something to do with cost. When the K20d seemed to cost an arm, it was not enough improvement. When it could be had for under $600, it was a terrific camera. The K-x starts there so people like it right away. When the K8 hits the market for $1,500 or a FF is introduced for $2,500, then the K7 will drop to half price and become the most satisfying camera, ever--for a while.
02-07-2010, 04:13 AM   #10
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this is not the first time someone has started such thread as OP.

When the forum name is - Pentax DSLR Discussion, it shall be pretty clear that it is gear discussion forum.
Finding fault in gear (camera) and discussing it , is the very nature of this forum. So I see no fault in such discussion (OP calls them bashing). The place to post pictures is different and not this.

It is alright to bash cameras here.

here is a link to - what to post and discuss.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/4-what-post-dslr-section.html


PS: sorry for opposing views but i guess this is not the forum for - going out and shooting some pictures and then showing.
02-07-2010, 05:00 AM   #11
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Someone has started threads to "showcase" the best photos of both the K7 and the Kx. Based on those galleries, I would definitely have to pick the K7. Looks like it just takes better photos over all. Of course, what we are seeing is a demonstration of photographic skill.

Lenses are the same as cameras in this respect. I remember when the FA 43 was a widely disrespected lens. Then, someone started a thread showing some amazing photos with it and it became an awesome lens. Well, nothing changed, just people's perception. The same is true for the DA 35, which many complained about and then J Sherman started his thread and it has been golden ever since.

I agree with you Gene. A K20 at 600 dollars is a different animal than a K20 at 1300 dollars. At the same time, we have to understand that the price is dependent on where in the cycle you are. The K20 dropped to 600 dollars around the time that the K7 was announced. If you wait till the K8 is announced, the price of the K7 will drop too, but that won't make it a better or worse camera.
02-07-2010, 06:30 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Someone has started threads to "showcase" the best photos of both the K7 and the Kx. Based on those galleries, I would definitely have to pick the K7. Looks like it just takes better photos over all. Of course, what we are seeing is a demonstration of photographic skill.

Lenses are the same as cameras in this respect. I remember when the FA 43 was a widely disrespected lens. Then, someone started a thread showing some amazing photos with it and it became an awesome lens. Well, nothing changed, just people's perception. The same is true for the DA 35, which many complained about and then J Sherman started his thread and it has been golden ever since.

I agree with you Gene. A K20 at 600 dollars is a different animal than a K20 at 1300 dollars. At the same time, we have to understand that the price is dependent on where in the cycle you are. The K20 dropped to 600 dollars around the time that the K7 was announced. If you wait till the K8 is announced, the price of the K7 will drop too, but that won't make it a better or worse camera.
good point all the price drop will do is make it a good "bang for the buck"
02-07-2010, 06:34 AM   #13
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Totally off-topic
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I agree with you Gene. A K20 at 600 dollars is a different animal than a K20 at 1300 dollars. At the same time, we have to understand that the price is dependent on where in the cycle you are. The K20 dropped to 600 dollars around the time that the K7 was announced. If you wait till the K8 is announced, the price of the K7 will drop too, but that won't make it a better or worse camera.
Yeah, I assume that you're lucky in the States. Here in SA the price for a K20D is still the same.
02-07-2010, 08:40 AM   #14
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jpzk you pointed out the culprit, "The user"
02-07-2010, 10:19 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
And the K10d is better than the K20d in other ways. Specifically, the ability to turn off the noise reduction (dark frame subtraction) at long exposures.



Pretty Rude if you ask me. Of course, there are those in the club who can do no wrong and a picture of a pile of dog excrement will get rave reviews by the followers.



Bottom line I think, is that people just have to have something to bitch about. Blame the equipment instead of studying what They may be doing wrong is the easy thing to do.
Jeff,

That is what becomes annoying: most such complaints come from people who hardly have any hands-on experience with the equipment they bash.
On the other hand, there are justified problems reported by regular users of such and such photo equipment who will take the necessary steps to fix the problem by either having it repaired or simply replaced. That makes sense.

I remember a while back that the K20D was not much of a gain over the K10D ... then, all of a sudden, it is the Queen of Pentax.
The K7 comes out on the market ... rave reviews .... , except for some high-ISO noise issues; then Kx makes its entry and because it has better noise handling than the K7, we start seeing a fair amount of bashing of the K7.
I assume this will continue when Pentax releases a "replacement" for the K7 or the Kx.
I won't comment on your hilarious comment regarding those who "can do no wrong" but I get your point!

When I have a problem, whether it is hardware or software, I am not afraid to ask around for tips, advice, recommendations ... whatever. Nearly 100% of the time, it is my fault: photographic technique mishaps or simply a lack of it. It will be quite rare that the euqipment is at fault, and if that is the case, it goes for repair.

Cheers.

JP
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