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02-15-2010, 01:56 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by aliasant Quote
I havnt been able to buy those Eneloop here in Sweden. The ones I have now are Hähnel 2500NimH (brand new) and as a backup my semi old Duracell 2500NimH.
The Duracells are pretty crappy but enough until the Hähnels are charged again.
The Hähnel did last several days and many hundreds of images, many with the flash.

OK the consistent and repeated advice here has been to use eneloops -
or any other quality Low Self-Discharge (LSD) NiMH batteries -
sometimes referred to as "hybrid"** batteries.

Here's a list given in that Wikipedia link:
in the USA these types of batteries usually are marked "Pre-Charged", "Ready-to-Use", "Always Ready" to identify them.

Regular NiMH have the problem of high rates of self-discharge - especially the higher capacity ones >= 2500mAh - because they have tried to pack as much capacity into the limited volume all the components are smaller/thinner - therefore less robust so are easily damaged - so the higher capacity NiMH develop very high rates of self-discharge pretty quickly.

(** hybrid is actually a misnomer - that's the name used by Ray-O-Vac for their LSD batteries)

02-15-2010, 02:00 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by aliasant Quote
Since it was the first day with the camera I did use the video a bit.
Maybe 1 hour trying to take a movie and trying to view it on my old tv but I only had an old video out cable from my old Samsung S850 compact and that didnt work.
Same contact though and it was worth a try.
Dont think I spent more then 1 hour doing that. I might have taken about 15 minutes of video max.
That was a pretty intense hour for the batteries--probably worth a few hundred shots.
02-15-2010, 02:07 PM   #33
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THanx for that wiki link. Should be able to find proper NimHs now.

And yes. Maybe that was worth a few 100 shots but together with the, maybe 75 test shots I had taken that is still very very far from 1900.

When I checked those batteries now they had 1300 mV left in them each so Im using them as mini flashlight batteries now

Forgot to mention that this all happened ( THe Lithiums depletion) BEFORE I updated the Firmware. I didnt dare doing that since the battery indicator behaved so strange.
02-15-2010, 02:10 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by aliasant Quote
Well. I dont really complain about my batteries lifetime even though the Lithiums that came with the camera died after about 3 hours use.

What I was a bit baffled over was the accuracy ( non existent) of the Battery life Indicator. Even after the Firmware update.

I havnt been able to buy those Eneloop here in Sweden. The ones I have now are Hähnel 2500NimH (brand new) and as a backup my semi old Duracell 2500NimH.
The Duracells are pretty crappy but enough until the Hähnels are charged again.
The Hähnel did last several days and many hundreds of images, many with the flash.
Just an aside for you.....dont throw the Lithiums away, they will probably continue to work quite well in a remote control/clock/ radio etc or such device that has a different power requirement.

02-15-2010, 05:16 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
For every one person who refuses the advice to use Eneloops and insists on struggling with years-old cells of unknown quality (or worse, alkalines), there are thousands happily using Eneloops with *no problems whatsoever*. AA's are a problem only if you choose to make them be a problem by not getting the ones known to work.
How do you know this? WHat I know is i see the same complaint on both forums over and over again pretty sure uninformed sales people say the battery life is useless as well. Why make it so difficult for users to get started? People who post on forums are mostly tech savy, imagine how many cannot work out what the hell is wrong and just return it.

Why do users need to know how to use a forum, that they need eneloops and that they need the right charger and they need to update the firmare just to get their entry level camera to work as they expect?

It makes no sense.
02-15-2010, 06:32 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
How do you know this?
Common sense. Eneloop *do* work great and people keep buying these cameras.

QuoteQuote:
Why make it so difficult for users to get started?
Only people who refuse to use the batteries that work well will find it difficult to get started. Others will find it easy.

QuoteQuote:
It makes no sense.
So don't buy a camera that uses them, and leave the thousands of the rest of us who are thrilled with them alone.
02-15-2010, 07:01 PM   #37
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Curious, what does Pentax say about the batteries and where is it listed?
02-15-2010, 07:17 PM   #38
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The manual lists the various types of batteries and which are recommended and which are not. But it would indeed be nice if they had a "quick start guide" that laid it out clearly as well (and answered a few other FAQ's, like what's that sound I hear when I shake my camera, or how do I use a manual focus lens). In other words, if there's a problem, it's a documentation problem, not a technical one.

But think about it. We're talking about a camera that takes any of hundreds of different interchangeable lenses, each of which can take any of dozens of interchangeable filters. The camera has a standard tripod mount that can take any of scores of differen tripods, and a hot shoes that can support any of quite a few different flashes. Yet somehow we don't consider it unreasonable that the user be expected to sort all that out for himself. Does having a choice of batteries too really add *that* much confusion? Even if one really believed that, then a simple note in the package would sort that out.

02-16-2010, 08:02 AM   #39
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Yeah but the difference is people expect batteries to work, it's not something a user expects to have to deal with.

It would be easier if it was the K-7 but the Kx is going to attract newbies and/or female head of household, it's a lot of work for them to dig this information up.
02-16-2010, 09:08 AM   #40
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I don't think the battery situation is really this difficult. The first set of batteries I put in my K-x were a set of used Rayovac Hybrid. No firmware update, no changing the battery type in the camera menu to NiMH, just popped in the batteries and started shooting. Got ~450 shots before they died.

Pentax ships the K-x with some Lithiums to get you started. The manual says alkaline batteries should only be used for emergencies and states that 1900mAh NiMH batteries are recommended. I don't know how much clearer it could be other than having the camera tell you this as you are setting the date and time.
02-16-2010, 10:53 AM   #41
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er... I'm not mediating -
both Marc Sabatella and Alfisti are right.

Pentax dSLRs using AA batteries have a long reputation of being very battery fussy - this family trait dates all the way back to the *ist D.

Which as Alfisti points out is very unfortunate as a lot of people will just expect the Pentax dSLR to "work" by dropping in any old AA battery.

But as Marc points out if one does that then there is likely to be problems - since as we mostly know here Pentax dSLRs using AA batteries are very battery fussy....
Yes, that came full circle.

So the only thing we can do on this forum whenever AA battery problems come up
- first, is to be patient
- since not everyone is aware of the battery fussiness of Pentax dSLRs.
- then advise to use LSD (Low Self-Discharge) NiMH batteries such as eneloops
or lithium AA batteries** like the ones that come with the camera (in the USA)

Also we have to remember that this forum is international - and even if eneloops are relatively easy to get in the USA - it may not be so elsewhere - as we found earlier in this thread.

** slight caveat - up to recently I would have said lithium AA batteries such as the Energizer Ultimate Lithiums that come with the camera were the best - if cost were not a consideration - but this thread:
Defective Camara or Battery Problem K200D??
has me scratching my head.

Last edited by UnknownVT; 02-16-2010 at 11:09 AM. Reason: typo
02-16-2010, 11:21 AM   #42
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Thanks for the advice. Just ordered 2 chargers and 8 Eneloop 2000 mAh for my K-x that I will be receiving shortly.

Ben :-)
02-16-2010, 02:10 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Yeah but the difference is people expect batteries to work, it's not something a user expects to have to deal with.

It would be easier if it was the K-7 but the Kx is going to attract newbies and/or female head of household, it's a lot of work for them to dig this information up.
Whatever. Of all the things that could possibly confuse you about a camera, if you choose to be worried about batteries, then buy a different camera. I still say that's the easy part. Most of us own any number of other devices that take AA's and have had opportunity to think about this before. And if not, a visit to a camera or electronics store will solve that instantly, as will a simple Google search. If some infinitessimally tiny percentage of the population for whatever reason can't do that, OK, fine, I'd agree Pentax should include a pink slip with the camera recommending hybrds and lithiums. It's just not a big deal except to to people who make it one - and to those for whom it's a big deal in a *positive* sense to be able to share batteries and chargers between devices and have assurance they'll still be able to find cells in the future.

So again, if you can't figure out after all this time which AA's to get, don't get a camera that uses them, but please, leave the rest of us alone. If you don't want to help the newbies who haven't figured out how to use Google to get the answer for themselves, fine, no need to say anything. Took more effort to write up your complaints than to simply make the recommendation, though.
02-16-2010, 05:33 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
Yeah but the difference is people expect batteries to work, it's not something a user expects to have to deal with.

It would be easier if it was the K-7 but the Kx is going to attract newbies and/or female head of household, it's a lot of work for them to dig this information up.
Valid point, my wife would get fed up and frustrated in a heartbeat.
And it all would be my fault.

Cheers, Mike.
02-16-2010, 06:48 PM   #45
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Perhaps for future cameras (that need a new body design), Pentax could design a camera that accepts either a rechargeable Li-ion or a AA battery pack (which could be filled with Lithium, NiMH, NiZn, or Alkaline).

I wouldn't mind a lot if I had to insert the batteries into a battery holder that I then had to insert into the camera. It might require the camera to be a teensy bit bigger, but that'd be OK. The K-x is a bit on the small side (for me) anyway.

If the voltage difference between the different types of battery packs (Li-ion vs AA) is too much, they could have different electrical contact points.

Then AA-diehards (myself included) would have a wider choice and the Li-ion zealots might leave us in peace.
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