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07-08-2007, 07:36 AM   #31
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It doesn't help that most Pentax dealers are useless, they only sell the body and the 2 kit lenses. Maybe that's different in the USA, but in the UK most dealers seem to sell with the 18-55 which instantly discredits it against the D200.

07-08-2007, 09:39 AM   #32
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I think right now the biggest disadvantage for Pentax in terms of perception is the fact that it's so damned hard to purchase Pentax equipment. As you've mentioned, many vendors (ones which stock a decent variety of Canon or Nikon) equipment either don't stock Pentax at all or only stock the bodies with the kit lens.

Pentax also needs to weed out a lot of the companies listed as vendors on their site. For example, Pentax lists one of my local photo stores as carrying Pentax SLR gear, but they're an all-Canon shop. I still go there for filters, cases, and such, but Pentax should not list a camera shop that only carries Canon cameras and lenses as a Pentax dealer. The difficulty of finding Pentax equipment for sale definately has a major negative impact on people's perception of Pentax - my experiences in this area during my previous stint as a Pentax owner (PZ-70 back in college) led me to initially not even consider Pentax when I was DSLR shopping, Pentax should be glad the Rebel XTi doesn't have spot metering, as that lack is what caused me to start looking at other vendors.

Yes, if you shop online it's easy to find Pentax gear (B&H, Adorama, eBay, Amazon, etc.), but there is definately something to be said for being able to hold a product in your hands rather than buying it sight unseen, especially in the photography world where this tends to be far more important to many buyers than with other product lines. I did wind up buying my K10D "sight unseen" from Amazon and am glad that I did, but I'm more reluctant to continue doing so with other equipment after my experiences with the AF-540FGZ I ordered from B&H.
07-08-2007, 01:19 PM   #33
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pointless

QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
Don't try so hard next time, PDL. Responding to RiceHigh has become almost a national sport. On this side of the ring, we have RiceHigh. And over there, we have the challenger...(insert ony one of a long list of names). RiceHigh has a career record of 7 wins and 934 losses. Not a great win/loss record, but he deserves at least some minor credit for sheer determination. The fans, on the other hand, are ready to throw the bum right out of the ring. Pentax fans, that is.

stewart
The issue is - arguing with RH is like trying to explain that pushing a chain uphill is not the smartest endevor to undertake. If you catch my drift.

As for Ben's original thesis - Pro's use what they need to use. I know pro's that use C*non, N*kon, 4x5, 8x10 and (if I may borrow Ben for the sake of arguement) Pentax. Some of these guys even use Holga's one of the pro's who uses a C*non knows another pro who published a series/book of images taken with a cell phone. Pro's use what they use - go to PhotoEye and look at their gallery - look at the "types" of media. Large format, Medium format, 35mm, digital and ---- gasp ---- plastic. People who ask questions about what camera is being used are missing the issue.

It is about the image, all about the image - not the tool.

PDL
07-08-2007, 04:53 PM   #34
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What a crock

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Ben, I have to disagree with you. The K10D is not in the D200 class and it is never a D200 equivalence.
1. It focuses much slower and less accurate than the D200;
Only below EV2 according to popphoto. At EV11-EV8 its up to 30% faster, so where do you get your information? In most cases where the camera is likely to be used its actually faster than a D200!
QuoteQuote:
2. It meters far less accurately and consistently than the D200;
Sais who? I have not seen any issues with K10D metering in my own use. It fact compared to previous Pentax's is excellent. The D200 is no better IMO.
QuoteQuote:
3. Continous shooting speed is less: 3fps Vs 5fps;
Yep - but D200 is a lot more expensive and uses a 4 channel sensor that causes a lot of interference banding at ISO1600. Its also noisier.
QuoteQuote:
4. Continuous AF is slow with much lower hit rate;
Sais who? I use AFC all the time and its absolutely fine if you have a half decent lens attached. Show me the test.
QuoteQuote:
5. Low light AF speed and accurate is of huge difference (just check the pophoto lab test results to see the differences);
Their results say nothing about accuracy so where do you get this rubbish from? Its only slower below EV2 which is practically pitch darkness and not much slower at that (1.1 vs 1.6 seconds). I have never seen any accuracy tests except in Photozone and there are as many issues with other makers there as with Pentax, so this is just nonsense.
QuoteQuote:
6. If you use both continuous AF with continuous frame mode, the K10D cannot keep the frame rate of 3fps and D200 can keep at 5fps with more frames in focus;
Sais who? I have no problem sustaining 3fps even in RAW and neither does anyone else I know unless the shutter speed is too slow. The K10D can do more JPEG bursts as well.
QuoteQuote:
7. Time lag figures as measured by the Imaging Resource in lab is a huge difference, no matter what focusing mode is chosen. The D200 is only having a mere of 57ms which is close to the D2 series. The K10 figures is more or less around 200ms except for prefocused in AF single mode, which is still around 100ms (yet slower than the Canon 30D which is 68ms);
These are so much smaller than the focus times they are irrelevant in normal use, so who cares? Most of this is probably due to the SR function kicking in.
QuoteQuote:
8. Construction and build are felt differently. D200 is of metal alloy body whereas K10 is of plastic. The weather sealed buttons, switches and knobs of D200 is sharp and crisp to turn with clear cut positioning where as the K10D ones are rather stiff - the K100D is much better here and similar to the D200;
D200 is more expensive, but both are rated for 150,000 shutter cycles. A mag allow casing does not infer higher quality, its an engineering choice. The D200 is however a lot heavier.
QuoteQuote:
Afterall, in a few words, you get what you pay for, it is the universal truth. What do one expect for a DSLR body with the feature riched specifications of the K10D but it is just sold at a price a little bit more expensive than the 400D and D40X?
Is a BMW so superior to a Lexus? I can think of several areas where a Lexus trounces a BMW.

07-08-2007, 05:34 PM   #35
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alot of this stuff is over my head at this point, i just got my first dslr, but if it is not
such a good camera - then why has it won 7 or 8 awards allready?
07-08-2007, 05:51 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Only below EV2 according to popphoto. At EV11-EV8 its up to 30% faster, so where do you get your information? In most cases where the camera is likely to be used its actually faster than a D200!

Sais who? I have not seen any issues with K10D metering in my own use. It fact compared to previous Pentax's is excellent. The D200 is no better IMO.

Yep - but D200 is a lot more expensive and uses a 4 channel sensor that causes a lot of interference banding at ISO1600. Its also noisier.


Sais who? I use AFC all the time and its absolutely fine if you have a half decent lens attached. Show me the test.

Their results say nothing about accuracy so where do you get this rubbish from? Its only slower below EV2 which is practically pitch darkness and not much slower at that (1.1 vs 1.6 seconds). I have never seen any accuracy tests except in Photozone and there are as many issues with other makers there as with Pentax, so this is just nonsense.


Sais who? I have no problem sustaining 3fps even in RAW and neither does anyone else I know unless the shutter speed is too slow. The K10D can do more JPEG bursts as well.

These are so much smaller than the focus times they are irrelevant in normal use, so who cares? Most of this is probably due to the SR function kicking in.

D200 is more expensive, but both are rated for 150,000 shutter cycles. A mag allow casing does not infer higher quality, its an engineering choice. The D200 is however a lot heavier.

Is a BMW so superior to a Lexus? I can think of several areas where a Lexus trounces a BMW.
Well said, Steve!
07-08-2007, 06:11 PM   #37
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Ditto from me... Lance

QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
Well said, Steve!
A good response Steve,

My Dad was a man of few words, but what he did say was considered, and in most cases accurate. One that he used in response to harassment by people who complained incessantly or pushed their opinion about subjects they considered themselves to be the worlds authority on, but did not always take the time to obtain accurate facts was.....

"Empty vessels make the most noise....." sometimes he would add, "..one that is half full will make less noise..." kinda says it all.

I thought RH jumped ship from Pentax, guess he still misses what he lost....

Phil

Last edited by matix; 07-08-2007 at 07:55 PM.
07-08-2007, 08:51 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Only below EV2 according to popphoto. At EV11-EV8 its up to 30% faster, so where do you get your information? In most cases where the camera is likely to be used its actually faster than a D200!
Pardon? Are we reading at the same reports by the PopPhoto?? I include the direct test page links here below:-

Camera Test: Pentax K10D - - PopPhotoJanuary 2007

Camera Test: Nikon D200 DSLR - - PopPhotoApril 2006

Sorry, NOT at EV2 as you tell us, but "In moderate light (EV 6 to 4), still Extremely Fast at 0.49 sec to 0.57 sec." for the D200 whereas for the K10D, the measured timing figures is: "0.57 at EV6" and "0.97(!?) at EV4". Do note again at EV4 it is only considered as "moderate light" at all and it is indeed fair to say so.

QuoteQuote:
Sais who? I have not seen any issues with K10D metering in my own use. It fact compared to previous Pentax's is excellent. The D200 is no better IMO.
Okay, this time, I quote the PhotoZone full test review and report. Since you guys seem to come up with amazing *new* information and conclusion (which I scratch my head to find where and why) if I just quoted the famous source names (which seems not to be adequate, most of the times), I feel obilged to include the full link (again) and quote the text (again) this time:

Pentax K10D Review / Test Report

"Metering systems
In terms of metering systems the Pentax K10D doesn't offer anything special beyond what we are used to from a other consumer DSLRs. When using the multi-segment mode the scene is metered in 16 different zones. Personally I didn't really find its performance to be overly convincing (e.g. compared to Nikon)"

Very "coincidently", my experience with a D200, 30D and 5D against a K10D and K100D is the same as and coherent with what Klaus, editor/owner of the PhotoZone, commented and believes.

QuoteQuote:
Yep - but D200 is a lot more expensive and uses a 4 channel sensor that causes a lot of interference banding at ISO1600. Its also noisier.
What? Again, my pardon pls. Well, since it seems that we are possibly not reading the same PopPhoto reports, I quote the direct links again below:

Camera Test: Pentax K10D - - PopPhotoJanuary 2007

At ISO 800, the noise level is rated as "Low", for the K10D

Camera Test: Nikon D200 DSLR - - PopPhotoApril 2006

At ISO 800, the noise level of D200 is rated as "Very Low". Sorry again.

At ISO 1600, both camears are rated as "low", though. But this is again against what you say about the ISO 1600 of the K10D is superior.

QuoteQuote:
Sais who? I use AFC all the time and its absolutely fine if you have a half decent lens attached. Show me the test.
This is a conclusion drawn from field experience, with cameras like D200, K10D, K100D, 30D and 5D, either compared side by side amongst two or three of them, at the same time, or in similar situations in tracking the same randomly moving subjects. NO measurbation tests can be shown to you, sorry! (but I wonder why you want measurbation this time!)

What I can say for others who want to know the truth is just that: Believe it or not! Or, it would be better for you try, compare and make up the conclusion *yourselves*!

Btw, what formal tests do you want to see? If there is any except for comments by words anywhere on the net, please show us the link(s)!

Continuous focusing tracking ability of K10D and K100D is indeed pathetic, that's my own opinion which is concluded by my own repeated experiences.

p.s. I have two Nikon D200 friends and one Canon 30D and one K10D Pentax friend in my "reallife" and when we come out to shoot for the same events (periodically), we could know the difference. If "it is the photographer" (I being a poor one as many of the fanboys always say), pls explain why when I used their cameras, then the results and hit rates would be much better? (Of course, this applies to the K10D in the other way, when I pick up my friend's K10D, the results were more or less the same as what I could get with my K100D! Finally, how come when I got a Canon 5D which could then do the similar jobs most of the time, why a K100D and K10D in my hands (and in my other friends' as well) could not????

QuoteQuote:
Their results say nothing about accuracy so where do you get this rubbish from? Its only slower below EV2 which is practically pitch darkness and not much slower at that (1.1 vs 1.6 seconds). I have never seen any accuracy tests except in Photozone and there are as many issues with other makers there as with Pentax, so this is just nonsense.
Just shoot with a fast prime under tungsten light or lower light than anyone would know. Steve, I think you should and did have seen those various reports at your highly participated anc acive DPR Pentax forum, but you may argue again that ALL those *user* reports of K10D and K100D users are just "rubbish" again, as some of you folks *always* like to say.

Last but not least, if the AF is so accurate, why K10 people need to keep the firmware version 1.10 and do the AF offset input lens by lens when they change different lens and shoot indoor and outdoor???

QuoteQuote:
Sais who? I have no problem sustaining 3fps even in RAW and neither does anyone else I know unless the shutter speed is too slow. The K10D can do more JPEG bursts as well.
Yes, but in single AF mode which it just does one and only one time (i.e., ONLY ONCE) for the AF and then shoot continuously. Just turn the AF mode into AF-C then the 3 fps shooting rate will never be kept unless you use AF-C mode to shoot with a still object!

I just ask other people who can think objectively: when you are in continous frame burst mode, what subjects do you usually shoot? - A stationary one or a moving one?? (well, don't argue with me to use MF if so!)

QuoteQuote:
These are so much smaller than the focus times they are irrelevant in normal use, so who cares? Most of this is probably due to the SR function kicking in.
I think the SR can easily be turned off and I do alway recommend others to turn it off when it is not needed. I usually did and do too but what I can tell that it is not the main reason for the slow and inaccurate and slow AF. It is irrelevant afterall.

QuoteQuote:
D200 is more expensive, but both are rated for 150,000 shutter cycles. A mag allow casing does not infer higher quality, its an engineering choice. The D200 is however a lot heavier.
"A lot heavier"? Are you kidding? 830g minus 717g is equal to just 113g, then you say it is "a lot" heavier. Frankly, both camera is not really very lightweight but it is not overall very heavy.

QuoteQuote:
Is a BMW so superior to a Lexus? I can think of several areas where a Lexus trounces a BMW.
Yes, Lexus is cheaper than BMW and it does have a few more advanced features (and maybe bells and whistles or even marketing hypes), technology wise, which a BMW lacks. But I'm afraid that you analogy does not apply to the K10D Vs D200 compariosn case. If we are trying to make your attempted analogy works, it could only be true for a 400D/XTi Vs the K10D. Enough said.

07-08-2007, 09:00 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
........Enough said.
Much, much, more than enough of this irrelevant waste of precious bandwidth.
07-08-2007, 09:25 PM   #40
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i have the slightest idea what this reviewer and that reviewer sed heck i just get confused with the EV2 ect.. talk the camers work for me and they do it well


this photo was taken to day with my Pentax smc 80-200 on my K100D . i was shooting throw a fince right behind home plate. it has been cropped but you can count the strings on the ball and see the puple of pitcher. yep i happy 50$ 2nd had lens and a non pro camera. and happy i do not read that stuff

07-08-2007, 10:24 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Pardon? Are we reading at the same reports by the PopPhoto?? I include the direct test page links here below:-

Camera Test: Pentax K10D - - PopPhotoJanuary 2007

Camera Test: Nikon D200 DSLR - - PopPhotoApril 2006

Sorry, NOT at EV2 as you tell us, but "In moderate light (EV 6 to 4), still Extremely Fast at 0.49 sec to 0.57 sec." for the D200 whereas for the K10D, the measured timing figures is: "0.57 at EV6" and "0.97(!?) at EV4". Do note again at EV4 it is only considered as "moderate light" at all and it is indeed fair to say so.
The K10 is still faster at anything above EV6 even according to pop-photo.

QuoteQuote:
Okay, this time, I quote the PhotoZone full test review and report. Since you guys seem to come up with amazing *new* information and conclusion (which I scratch my head to find where and why) if I just quoted the famous source names (which seems not to be adequate, most of the times), I feel obilged to include the full link (again) and quote the text (again) this time:

Pentax K10D Review / Test Report

"Metering systems
In terms of metering systems the Pentax K10D doesn't offer anything special beyond what we are used to from a other consumer DSLRs. When using the multi-segment mode the scene is metered in 16 different zones. Personally I didn't really find its performance to be overly convincing (e.g. compared to Nikon)"

Very "coincidently", my experience with a D200, 30D and 5D against a K10D and K100D is the same as and coherent with what Klaus, editor/owner of the PhotoZone, commented and believes.
So presumably you also agree with his other comments, like this one....

"Fast - really fast! AF speed and the accuracy of the K10D are impressive even with the cheap kit lenses and also in dark conditions. The brilliant AF speed also shows up in continuous AF mode."

Hmm - seems you have a selective ability to see the negative and miss the positive. I absolutely agree with Klaus too but you clearly do not, so how come you agree with all his other points?
07-08-2007, 10:28 PM   #42
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RiceHigh:

So now you suddenly have friends who own D200s, 30Ds, and a K10D? I call user error on all who handles the Pentax on your side of the camp. Just browse at all the sports/action photos already posted here and elsewhere. Apparently, a lot of us learned to USE the camera (including AF) before bitching about it.

And how come you never posted your own measurebating about the other cameras? Apparently, you had access to ALL of them all along. Or they just suddenly appeared at your friends' sides all of a sudden while posting your last reply?
07-08-2007, 10:32 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by REDEYE Quote
alot of this stuff is over my head at this point, i just got my first dslr, but if it is not such a good camera - then why has it won 7 or 8 awards allready?

Few doubt the Pentax K10D is a excellent camera, Redeye. Even RiceHigh, an incessant K10D critic, cannot honestly say it is a bad camera. Instead, notice most of these comparisons are with cameras costing many hundreds of dollars more, with the debates being whether the K10D is as good as, or even better than, those much more expensive cameras.

Many magazine and "pro" online reviewers do the same thing. Since the K10D blows everything in it's price range out of the water, it is often compared to cameras costing many hundreds of dollars more. Most reviewers are honest enough to say it is amazing a camera costing so little is able to compare well to cameras costing much more, while a few reviewers simply use those much more expensive cameras as a means to belittle the K10D.

stewart
07-08-2007, 11:31 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by fast50 Quote
It doesn't help that most Pentax dealers are useless, they only sell the body and the 2 kit lenses. (snip)
QuoteOriginally posted by Entropy Quote
I think right now the biggest disadvantage for Pentax in terms of perception is the fact that it's so damned hard to purchase Pentax equipment. As you've mentioned, many vendors (ones which stock a decent variety of Canon or Nikon) equipment either don't stock Pentax at all or only stock the bodies with the kit lens. (snip)

While I don't like the situation either, put yourself in the shoes of those retail camera venders. The are almost a dozen DSLR manufacturers at the moment, each selling a long list of cameras, lenses, and accessories. Add to that the long list of lenses and accessories from third-party manufacturers.

Since retail venders have to pay for their stock in advance, it would be incredibly expensive to stock the shelves with everything. Indeed, they would need a lot of shelves, and perhaps even a much larger store, to do so. So clearly these stores cannot possibly stock every camera, every lense, and every accessory. Something has to be left out.

When choosing what to leave out of your store, consider the marketplace, your potential customer base, the costs of adding a new product line, and competition from online stores and other retail venders in the area. Plus, if your background is in photography (often the case with independent photo stores), there are your own personal preferences to consider.

To keep your customers from going to other nearby stores, you at least have to stock what other retail venders in the area are stocking. Now add your own preferences to that inventory. When you're finished with all that, there often isn't a lot of money or shelf space left to be creative with your own stock offerings.

Now look at Pentax and decide where it fits into all that. You most certainly want it's hot new camera at the moment, but how much are you going to put into everything else Pentax. Remember, you don't even carry everything from the brands you feature. Most retail stores ultimately decide on one or two Pentax cameras, a very few lenses for those cameras, and an even lesser selection of accessories.

It's not a great situation for Pentax, or Pentax users, but will change with long term success at remaining competitive. Just remember the situation is even worse for the lesser upstart brand names lucky to get even a single camera in the stores, much less anything else.

stewart
07-09-2007, 12:33 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
RiceHigh:

So now you suddenly have friends who own D200s, 30Ds, and a K10D? I call user error on all who handles the Pentax on your side of the camp. Just browse at all the sports/action photos already posted here and elsewhere. Apparently, a lot of us learned to USE the camera (including AF) before bitching about it.
I could see sample photos of sports but have never seen continuous (series of) action photos which tracked a randomly moving subject here or elsewhere, by any Pentax DSLRs. I can see those from Nikons and Canons on the net and magazines instead, frankly speaking.

Sometimes people do mix up with action/sport and continuous action photography (for randomly and/or fast moving objects).

A subject who is doing sport and in action but not moving radically is easily to capture or pre-focused at somewhere. Good example are basketball games at the bracket, track and field sports at the "lines", swimming games, etc. More than two decades ago, I used only a Ricoh XR-1 (full manual SLR) and a XR-20 (of course still a MF SLR) (and used the FM2 for a few times) to shoot those "more stationary" sport events. No problem there. As I mostly prefocused and wait the object to fall in my "trap". So, those pictures you mentioned mean nothing.

For a radically moving subject which's moving path is random and fast enough, then the AF system of the camera is something that we must rely on. I don't think our hands and nerves can be fast enough to track those things.

So, I am now talking about the AF tracking ability differences between camera, in response to the OP started discussions about the pro DSLRs and the differences between the K10D and D200 (or Pentax Vs Nikon or so).

QuoteQuote:
And how come you never posted your own measurebating about the other cameras? Apparently, you had access to ALL of them all along. Or they just suddenly appeared at your friends' sides all of a sudden while posting your last reply?
What's the ground of yours to make such insult and strong statements in strongly hintin that I'm lying? It's all my good willness to share my personal things to you guys here but it doesn't mean you shoudl impose insult to myself personally.

The civil thing is that we should discuss the gear and its pros and cons and the grounds as long as no personal attack is imposed. I think it's the basic for participating in a forum.

Still, anyone can search my name and the model to see if I had actually made posts and comments before on these machines, say, "RiceHigh and D200" or "RiceHigh and 30D", on the net. Still, even I did not comment on other gear before, you still had and have no ground in hinting strongly that I am lying. <b>You owe me an apology.</b>

The case was I did comment on the D200 and the 30D before on the net, if you could find them. But then it is totally irrevelant to your groundless insult anyway. I did comment that Pentax's image quality was good or better for some of my posts in some shooting situations, of course when the camera did it righ, or shoot RAW to compensate. But then you particular folks just always remember the "negative" (actual I found them to be true before I say anything) speeches of mine (but always forget the my "positive" statements about Pentax).

Finally, I just wish to ask: do you and can you read every and all posts I made and do you go out for shooting with me everytime? (before you made statement in strongly hinting someone is lying - you can deny but everyone have read here can judge, not only the current Pentaxians)
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