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07-10-2007, 12:07 AM   #61
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I'm confident I'm not a pro but I've been following this topic from the start.

It's a weird behavior in the human nature that a man (not women) has always defend his decision, in this case the decision to buy a camera. Then there are some people, many I'd say, that have to impose their decisions/opinions on the others. That is based on their needs. This is not always done voluntarily. It's more like a advise giving, but it tends to go south into stupid arguments.

Some 9 or 10 months ago a buddy of mine told me that he bought a 400D/XTi. I had been looking at the dslr market for over a year and I knew the market pretty well (entry level dslrs). When he told me the money he spent on the camera and a single lens, I was sort of upset. Not because I was jealous, not because I hate one manufacturer or love the other. I was upset that he could have bought a better camera for that sort of money. I knew he got the camera for personal use and doesn't do anything extreme. But it was his choice and even though I think he could have gotten a better combo that offers more bang for the buck he's happy with it.

When it comes to pro cameras we need to understand what is a pro camera? What makes a camera a pro?

People argue one system has faster af than the other. It is normal it does as they implement different technologies. Does fast af always tell a pro camera from a non pro one? I think not. Faster af means one camera can be used mre often than the other in fast action photography. What for do you need a fast af in a studio?

Don't forget that camera, is as good as the photographer. After all you can give the most expensive camera to my dad and he wouldn't know what to do with it.

The point is, any camera is good at doing what's meant to do. We, the consumers should be happy competition exists since we get better products, at cheaper prices and proper customer assistance.

QuoteQuote:
i agree, Pentax REALLY needs to offer a split screen.
There are split image screens for the k100d and k10d on ebay for cheap. I've ordered one and still waiting for it.

07-10-2007, 12:30 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I could see sample photos of sports but have never seen continuous (series of) action photos which tracked a randomly moving subject here or elsewhere, by any Pentax DSLRs.
Would you, or anyone else, like me to post the series I took of a car on a race track travelling between 80 and 150km/h? It was with continuous frame turned on, AF.C and with a cheap kit 18-125 Sigma. To make things harder it had to focus into the sun on a couple of shots and did not hunt once.

This series was 28 frames long shot in JPEG on the 16th of June. I had a dedicated professional Canon (30D) shooter standing beside me, his jaw dropped and said he could only dream of being able to do that.

Media was a Team Extreme 2gig high speed card. Frame rate was consistant the whole time.
07-10-2007, 01:24 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Donald Quote
Hello. I have done this alot with Canon (don't remember model but new last year), Nikon (D70s), Leica (Rsomething) and Pentax (DS2).

All cameras had variable frame rate, Canon and Pentax the worst, depending on storage media. With an extreme-something number card frame rate seemed continuous, with some cheap SD cards I bought in emergency the frame rate was very inconsistent, for all of the above camera makes.

All of them hunted for focus so much that I abandoned and went to manual focus. The more I try autofocus the more dissatisfied I am with it: very self critical I believe I've never got a sharp photo using autofocus, and also now believe any body arguing autofocus speed performance just truly doesn't know what they're talking about producing real photos for a real purpose.
Try a D200, 5D or even the 30D, then you'll see the difference.

My experience is that the D200 has the highest frame rate but the focusing accuracy is close but not absolute. This applies to the tracking ability when the subject moves across the frame too. The 5D has a lower frame rate of 3 fps (vs the 5fps of D200 or the 30D) but the focusing accuracy is obviously better. Both the D200 and the 5D keep the frame rate in a good way.

As for the K10D, it tries to adjust the focus before it "advances" the frame. If it fails to track or measure the focus, it will then "releases" the frame and then the procedures will repeat. My impression is that it cannot do both thing at the same time or simply that the AF system is not fast enough so that the camera tries to delay the frame advance to give it a trial.

The final results is that neither the frame rate can be kept constantly nor the correct focus hit rate is high for the K10D and actually the out of focus photos is in the highest number and that the amount of OOF is very large (The D200 ones are slightly off only)

K100D performs even worse owing to the very shallow buffer and the fact that its AF is even slightly slower and less responsive than the K10.

Nonetheless, I do agree to certain extent that the camera does not matter but provided that for certain applications it meets our shooting requirements. It actually is not a brand issue but a camera issue afterall, but it happens Pentax still don't have any up-market model which can perform in such maybe more "adverse" shooting conditions with more demanding requirements.

And yes, we can use MF if the AF fails but I just wonder if we can do it better than the camera in such cases. Also, why not let the camera do it if there really exists some cameras can do it?

For normal and typical shooting under daylight, I do believe the AF system of the K10D and K100D is Okay. At least the achieved focus has been more precise than pervious AF system of Pentax *ist Dx DSLRs already (The K cameras are the first Pentax DSLRs which can focus accurately for the "problematic" lens FA*85/1.4 at 1.4). For low light, yellow light and continuous moving object tracking, indeed Pentax is lagging behind and I do hope the coming higher end model DSLR of Pentax, if any, should be able to catch up in the game.

I really hope that what Roland Mabo told us will be true, i.e., K-1D (or whatever it is named) will come in autumn next year and this camera will perform up to the pro class DSLRs of C and N, with newly designed and highly improved metering and AF system in it.
07-10-2007, 01:36 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by blwnhr Quote
Would you, or anyone else, like me to post the series I took of a car on a race track travelling between 80 and 150km/h? It was with continuous frame turned on, AF.C and with a cheap kit 18-125 Sigma. To make things harder it had to focus into the sun on a couple of shots and did not hunt once.

This series was 28 frames long shot in JPEG on the 16th of June. I had a dedicated professional Canon (30D) shooter standing beside me, his jaw dropped and said he could only dream of being able to do that.

Media was a Team Extreme 2gig high speed card. Frame rate was consistant the whole time.
Any direct link for your pics, I'd love to see and learn! And, how fast away you were staying away from the cars?

07-10-2007, 03:00 AM   #65
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Unfortunately I deleted the full sequence, I have 3 shots of it left though.

This shows the track, the position I was standing and the speeds in kilometres/hour:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/Baskerville.jpg

Here are 3 of the shots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1404.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1407.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1410.jpg
07-10-2007, 04:07 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by blwnhr Quote
Unfortunately I deleted the full sequence, I have 3 shots of it left though.

This shows the track, the position I was standing and the speeds in kilometres/hour:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/Baskerville.jpg

Here are 3 of the shots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1404.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1407.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1410.jpg
Really nice pictures! If the exposure for the first two shots can be brighter, it would be even nicer! If you shot RAW, those pictures could have been perfect.

I do believe that you tracked the object closely as I bet though sucessful panning effect and shots were achieved by following the object closely by staring at the car thro the finder and keep the object at the dead centre.
07-10-2007, 04:44 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If you shot RAW, those pictures could have been perfect.
Yes, but the photos had to be up on the net that night hence the JPEG.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I do believe that you tracked the object closely as I bet though sucessful panning effect and shots were achieved by following the object closely by staring at the car thro the finder and keep the object at the dead centre.
I did, my technique is to watch the red AF marker in the viewfinder and constantly make sure that is on the part of the car I wish to be in focus. It helps me get shots like this without cropping - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1283.jpg.

My point was that the AF system worked well, even in late afternoon light and with a slow f5.6 lens (all shots were at 125mm). I've used a 30D and a 1DMk2 and found the K10D to be compairable for the type of photography I'm doing with only the AF of the 1DMk2 being slightly faster. Both Canons were using IS USM lenses.

As for frame rate the K10D has been consistant and reliable. As I stated before I use Team Xtreem SD cards. I do not know the speed of these cards (it is not written on them) other than to say they are high speed, I'd assume 133x.

In conclusion, once I'm geared up with f2.8 and/or SDM lenses i will want for nothing over my Canon shooting counterparts.
07-10-2007, 06:52 AM   #68
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I see your point, but my experience maybe different from yours, probably owing to the different moving patterns of the subjects. I think the racing cars you shoot is moving at a somehow constant and steady speed, although it is high, and is somehow farther away, whereas the subjects I shoot, e.g., pets and children who are moving randomly and at close distance. I have no experience with Canon 1D MkII but my 5D clearly shows the difference in tracking these subjects especially the Pentax tends to lose track of the subject with less obvious patterns or complicated texture and at lower light indoor. And, the frame rate could not be kept once the focus has been missed.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

QuoteOriginally posted by blwnhr Quote
Yes, but the photos had to be up on the net that night hence the JPEG.



I did, my technique is to watch the red AF marker in the viewfinder and constantly make sure that is on the part of the car I wish to be in focus. It helps me get shots like this without cropping - http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/blownhr/Drift/IMGP1283.jpg.

My point was that the AF system worked well, even in late afternoon light and with a slow f5.6 lens (all shots were at 125mm). I've used a 30D and a 1DMk2 and found the K10D to be compairable for the type of photography I'm doing with only the AF of the 1DMk2 being slightly faster. Both Canons were using IS USM lenses.

As for frame rate the K10D has been consistant and reliable. As I stated before I use Team Xtreem SD cards. I do not know the speed of these cards (it is not written on them) other than to say they are high speed, I'd assume 133x.

In conclusion, once I'm geared up with f2.8 and/or SDM lenses i will want for nothing over my Canon shooting counterparts.


07-10-2007, 07:41 AM   #69
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Back to the subject

Any camera in the hand of a pro is a pro camera. (Does Holga mean anything to you?)

PDL - simple isn't it.
07-10-2007, 08:03 AM   #70
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thats what i was waiting to hear.


boo yah!
07-10-2007, 10:40 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
Any camera in the hand of a pro is a pro camera. (Does Holga mean anything to you?)

PDL - simple isn't it.
Just a little aside. I once did a shoot for "Madame Figaro" using a couple of "Yashimat" 6X6 cameras..Sharp as a tack...
07-10-2007, 01:22 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Just a little aside. I once did a shoot for "Madame Figaro" using a couple of "Yashimat" 6X6 cameras..Sharp as a tack...
your just a good photographer i bet you could do a good job with a camera phone lol
07-10-2007, 05:12 PM   #73
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I try to not comment on the RH threads, but it's really started to get annoying (and I've got a relatively long internet-spam/flame fuse, which is still shorter than my temper :P)

RiceHigh, it's nice that you have all these technical findings, measurements and jargon, but I think what it comes down to, at the end of the day, is that I'd say about 90% of your posts made here serve no other purpose other than to divide and inflame.

You've proved your (personal) point that you *don't* like Pentax. That's alright by me - everyone has their own reasons, and it may or may not have been due to a bad apples you owned (I'm not sure - I don't have the knowhow to read, engage and fully understand your blog).

If you like the Canon system as much as you do, fine by me (and I'm sure, by others as well). Go use it!

Instead of wasting your own precious time by starting arguments that you know that we won't listen to, or really appreciate, go outside and shoot more, or post your findings on a C&N forum where your findings may fall on more welcoming ears.

True, Pentax owners may be a bit more defensive than other brand owners (well...not really, but I'm just throwing this in), but you have to accept that everyone has different "standards", if you may, in what equipment they use, and what they expect from your equipment.

What might not work for you, may work better than anything for someone else.

Your technical knowledge, and ability to interpret and crunch numbers and information is respectable, but I just ask that you perhaps approach your subjects and replies with more tact. Instead of attempting to "divide an conquer", try to keep in mind that, unfortunately, the world does not exactly revolve around the exact ideals and standards that you may hold.

My 5 cents (which is now worth 3 American cents!)
07-10-2007, 05:18 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I see your point, but my experience maybe different from yours, probably owing to the different moving patterns of the subjects. I think the racing cars you shoot is moving at a somehow constant and steady speed, although it is high, and is somehow farther away, whereas the subjects I shoot, e.g., pets and children who are moving randomly and at close distance.
The speed of the subject, in the example I was giving, varied from 25MPH-100MPH, while distance to subject varied from 300+ft to only 10ft. The subject is moving across the frame as well as right for the camera and typically 'runs' will have 2 cars meaning a lot happening in the immediate fore and back ground of the subject. There are rarely focus issues.

Like you say, your experience may be different from mine due to the way we use the camera, but in the end your's is the opinion of 1 person, as is mine. I fail to see the need to keep recycling the same points over and over. There are thousands of users out there who are happy with the AF system. You are one person who isn't. You have now bought a Canon, good luck with that.
07-10-2007, 09:02 PM   #75
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my subject, of recent experience (Pentax / Nikon) was a soft white flower against a background of similar soft white flowers, all tight together, all blowing in the wind, about 20cm from lens. Autofocus became useless, even with no wind.

I maintain if you rely on autofocus you are primarily a point and shooter. You may get some good shots, but it is a combination of luck, skill and technology. Go manual and it is primarily skill based on intent.
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