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03-11-2010, 10:07 PM   #1
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Pentax EVIL...

... would leave 4/3rds spinning. Even upcoming Canon/Nikon/Sony EVILs would have no answer.

Imagine the following:

- K-x (Exmor) Sensor
- In-body stabilisation
- 21/40/70 pancakes

The 3-way punch of APS-C size sensor, in body stabilization and superb small lenses simply blows away all the other makers. They couldn't compete.

Please Hoya. There's a ton of $$ to be made there.

Better call my broker

03-12-2010, 09:42 AM   #2
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There have been semi-heated discussions over the last several months about this very topic. The opinions fall into tow basic camps:

1 - EVIL cameras will take over the world
2 - You'll have to pry this pentaprism from my cold, dead fingers

With the Olympus E-PL1, there's finally a M4/3 that's approaching the entry-level, the place where EVIL, if it does shake up the market, will start. It will be interesting to see how the camera does this year.
03-12-2010, 10:22 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
... would leave 4/3rds spinning. Even upcoming Canon/Nikon/Sony EVILs would have no answer.

Imagine the following:

- K-x (Exmor) Sensor
- In-body stabilisation
- 21/40/70 pancakes

The 3-way punch of APS-C size sensor, in body stabilization and superb small lenses simply blows away all the other makers. They couldn't compete.

Please Hoya. There's a ton of $$ to be made there.

Better call my broker
Me being so new back into SLRs...............Why is this such a "killer set up."
03-12-2010, 11:14 AM   #4
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> John

I tried to search "EVIL" posts but didn't have much luck (maybe I'm looking wrong?). Anyway, I was sure they had to exist, and I thank you for your measured and informative response.

Strangely, I don't fall into either camp. I'd love a full-fledged pentaprism for when I can conveniently carry one, and a smaller EVIL for when I can't. But of course, sharing the same lenses.

> ziscwg

The beauty of EVIL is the compact form factor yet retaining the large sensor and image quality.

If you look at the following criteria:

- Highly regarded sensor (albeit from Sony in Pentax's case)
- Compact range of highly regarded lenses
- In-body stabilization

Only Pentax can provide 3 check marks.

I have disregarded Panasonic's and Olympus's EVIL efforts so far due to their sensors.

Samsung interests me with the K7 sensor, but their compact 30mm pancake is crippled with no image stabilization.

Canon, Nikon and Sony are likely to bring out fantastic EVIL models. None of them have a range of pancake glass. And only Sony has in-body stabilization.

Simply put, NOBODY is in a better legacy position to win the EVIL space than Pentax.

03-12-2010, 10:49 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
>

Strangely, I don't fall into either camp. I'd love a full-fledged pentaprism for when I can conveniently carry one, and a smaller EVIL for when I can't. But of course, sharing the same lenses.
[...]
Canon, Nikon and Sony are likely to bring out fantastic EVIL models. None of them have a range of pancake glass. And only Sony has in-body stabilization.

Simply put, NOBODY is in a better legacy position to win the EVIL space than Pentax.
Dunno about Canikon, as they haven't made any announcements regarding EVIL, but Sony will likely use a new mount for their EVIL cameras, and provide adapters for a-mount lenses (it's yet to be confirmed whether the adapter will provide autofocus capabilities). Hell, at this point, we don't even know if the cameras will have SSS.
So I'm not sure that Pentax, should it go down the EVIL road, will use the existing mount.



PS- I do fall in the latter category... somewhat: I wouldn't touch a camera that does not have a viewfinder, but then again, if it has an EVF as good as an optical viewfinder (the A700 or K7 ones, for example), then I wouldn't mind a bit (although it should be integrated in the body, not 'clip-on' like with Oly or Panny)
03-13-2010, 12:24 AM   #6
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There's a hole in the lens lineup, a ~30mm hole. Plug that, and an EVIL with the Exmor sensor and in-body SR, in a Pen-F-oid package, would be mighty damn appealing, and would seem to be No Big Thing to develop. But is Pentoya interested in allocating resources (spending $$$) to build and market this niche system? That takes us off in the realm of idle speculation, where all the answers are: Dunno.

The niche the K-EVIL-D might fit into now contains m4:3 gear. Are 4:3 system sales sufficient to entice Pentoya to try for a piece of that pie, and grow it into a bigger pie? Dunno, but that's likely what Pentoya bean-counters are considering. Said beaners might wait to see if Samsung and Sony EVIL sales go anywhere. This assumes that Pentoya HAS an EVIL team at work. Does anyone have evidence of such development?
03-13-2010, 02:54 AM   #7
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I dunno if it really is a niche... seems to have become much bigger than that.

M43rds now accounds for 16.5% of all interchangeable lens camera sales by volume in Japan. With Canon and Nikon accounting for 70% +, this represents over 50% share of the remainder.

I know that this is only Japan, but it is right under Hoya's noses and they have to be taking note.

EVIL is the next big space. Every maker needs to fight their corner or face significant decline.
03-13-2010, 04:38 AM   #8
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Pentax ME-type/size body with a µK-mount and an adapter that is fully KAF3-compatible. Built-in SR, weather seals and two control wheels plus some buttons for ISO, EV etc… oh, and a built in EVF.

I'd buy it. Probably would cost over $1000, but still.

03-13-2010, 04:48 AM   #9
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I don't think there's any point in making a non-SLR camera with the K mount, since the registration distance means it can't be made small anyway.

I'd much, much rather see Pentax get on board with the already-successful micro-4/3rds, or at least re-kindle the relationship with Samsung. I doubt it'll happen, but it'd be better than a failed attempt to go it alone.
03-13-2010, 04:57 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I don't think there's any point in making a non-SLR camera with the K mount, since the registration distance means it can't be made small anyway.
Not smaller in the direction of the registration distance, but certainly of different shape and smaller in other directions. I on the contrary think that if Pentax one day releases an EVIL camera, it would be a good idea to support K mount somehow. I for example would not buy a camera and lenses of a new standard, but would most likely buy a camera body to use my limited pancakes on.
03-13-2010, 03:16 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote

I have disregarded Panasonic's and Olympus's EVIL efforts so far due to their sensors.
Why? They're excellent sensors, just not quite as excellent as the current SONY Exmor offerings.

QuoteQuote:
Canon, Nikon and Sony are likely to bring out fantastic EVIL models. None of them have a range of pancake glass. And only Sony has in-body stabilization.

Simply put, NOBODY is in a better legacy position to win the EVIL space than Pentax.
...or they all are. And of those companies could develop an in-body IS system for such cameras, and Pentax has NO pentax lenses for an EVIL-mount. Unless you plan on making it with the current K-mount, in which case your cameras will be just as thick as current DSLR, thanks to the registration distance.
03-13-2010, 09:35 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
Unless you plan on making it with the current K-mount, in which case your cameras will be just as thick as current DSLR, thanks to the registration distance.
The idea that you can't make a Pentax dSLR any thinner than they are now because of the registration distance is a bit of myth. Take a look:




I daresay that the MX is probably as thin as an Olympus EP-1/2 or Panasonic GF1.

What's the difference in thickness between the MX and K-x? If you opened up a K-x (I'm not volunteering), you'd probably see the main circuit board and lcd stacked right behind the sensor. That's the added thickness of a modern day dSLR. But who says they have to be there?

How about putting the circuit board along the bottom? How about putting a 2.5" lcd on the top and mount in on a tilt/swivel hinge? Sony did that a couple of years ago with their R1. This design may encourage a stable shooting posture similar to a twin-lens reflex of days past, arms at sides, elbows braced against the body and forearms pointing forward.

It's not inconceivable that Pentax could devlop a compact EVIL while maintaining the standard K-mount registration. Maybe it ends up squatter and a bit more boxy than the flattish M43 variants, but how cool would it be to be able to take this mythical cameras and a fistfull of the Limited and throw them in a small bag on your next vacation?
03-13-2010, 11:53 PM   #13
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> John

I like the way you think!
03-14-2010, 02:17 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
What's the difference in thickness between the MX and K-x? If you opened up a K-x (I'm not volunteering), you'd probably see the main circuit board and lcd stacked right behind the sensor. That's the added thickness of a modern day dSLR. But who says they have to be there?
Olympus had a legacy of small thin film SLRs, exemplified IMHO with the 35mm half-frame Pen-F series (I had a Pen-FT). 35/HF is very nearly the same size as APS-C. Oly chose not to build on that legacy when they developed 4:3 with Kodak, but the basic architecture could serve as a template for APS-C SLRs (but not K-mount EVIL). The Pen-F body is thin and low -- see Olympus Pen F - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Olympus Pen F - Camerapedia.org

The Pen-F lenses had a register of 28.95mm, in the neighborhood of (but not quite compatible with) Leica LTM and M lenses. Compare with the Pentax register of 45.46mm. Lenses made for that architecture wouldn't work on Pentax K-mount cams, but longer register lenses are easily adapted to it. (I used a T-mount Spiratone 400mm with Pen-F adapter.) I'd love to see a Pen-F dSLR reincarnation.

A Pentax-register EVIL (K-EVIL-D!!) could not be as thin as a Pen-F, but John's point is dead on. Sensor, screen and circuitry needn't be stacked behind the lens. The Pen-F achieved its sleek silhouette by changing the SLR anatomy, going vertical and internal. A slim K-EVIL-D (even without a swivel LCD screen) could, for instance, be vertically oriented (portrait mode) and totally asymmetrical, with lens and sensor at one end and the LCD screen and circuitry at the other. Or, think of it as a landscape-mode camera that you just happen to hold vertically.

Wait, I just thought of a way to get a thinner K-EVIL-D!! The lens mount PULLS OUT from the body, a twist-and-pull to power-on the cam and put the lens into PK-register position! Old Leicas had retractable lenses, so there's a precedent.
03-14-2010, 04:14 AM   #15
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> RR

Nice idea! The lens mount could extend out electronically, much like a PnS camera lens comes out when switched on.
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